billp Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I know this has been asked and discussed in great length but I need to ask again. I'm looking to start getting back into Civil War re-enacting but this time as a blacksmith/doctor. Now I'm looking to sell some of what I make but not looking to do a big business, just hand out show the kids how it's done and educate in the process. Now my problem is just what to ask for what I do. Not I'm not good at math to figure time per cost type of thing so I just have a hare time figuring on these type of items. But, if some of you who do re-enact could give me an idea on what you ask for things like S hooks, fire place pokers, cooking forks, tent stakes, any thing used at an event I would appreciate it. I'm looking to do only local things in west Tn. and Ky. plus a few local fairs, so I don't think I would interferer with any of you. This is just a test this year to see in which direction I want to go in. Again I'm not looking to break the bank just cover cost and have some fun in the process. So if any of you could help I would appreciate it. Bill P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) Hi Bill. I do some Mountainman Re enacting and sell some items at rendezvous. I just made 20 tent stakes for a guy that ordered them. The 1/2 inch round rod cost me $.81 per foot. I cut the stakes 18 inches long. That's about $1.20 each in material. I charged him $2.00 per stake. It took less than an hour to cut and forge the whole bunch. I figure that I made about $16.00 for that hour. I'm a hobby smith and don't do this for a living, so to me, that's not bad part-time money. S hooks are $2.50, fire pokers are $10.00. On my serving forks I get from $15.00 to $20.00, depending on the event. I hope that this gives you an idea of what you can charge. Good luck and have fun. :D Edited December 24, 2009 by CurlyGeorge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 i do mountian man reinacting and have done it for 25 years in the nw there are regional differences in prices and also skill is part but my websight has prices on it theyre about 4 years old but it will get you into the ballpark . Iron Grip Blacksmithing i figure that iron is only 20% of cost or less . good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billp Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 Thanks guys this will really help. I have only seen 3 or 4 blacksmith in 14 years of re-enacting so getting ideas on prices is hard. Thanks again your information. Bill P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Pricing is a complex issue. To get an idea of what other vendors are changing for ironwork you can check out various web sites catering to Civil War era reenactors for example: http://winchestersutler.com/IronW.html http://fcsutler.com/ https://www.regtqm.com/ A humble observation for what little it is worth: It has been my humble observation over many years that smiths that cater to the Civil War reenactment community have a disproportionally higher tendency to get burned out and quit blacksmithing. - reenactors have very little interest, as a whole, in blacksmithing other than giving the event a more historic feel and flavor. - reenactors want the best deal that they can get, regardless of quality. - reenactors tend to be convinced that the more poorly an iron item is made, the more authentic it is. - if you invent a new useful item, or an improvement in a standard item, in two weeks every vendor will be importing cheap copies from south of the border. - blacksmiths eventually figure out that they are loosing money at Civil War and living history events by the fistful, but only after they notice that their bank account balance is mysteriously decreasing. Blacksmiths at CW events are usually so inexperienced in pricing their costs that they don't even know that they are loosing money until it becomes so painfully and financially obvious that they quit. - Civil War reenactment event organizers will put a blacksmith setup usually in the event's worst location, near porta-potties, or in a spot with very low foot traffic. A smith at the Gettysburg big 145th anniversary event told me that he only had two people out of the almost 100-thousand attendees visit at his blacksmithing set-up over the three day period because it was so far out of the way of the event. Just my opinion, mileage may vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billp Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 I hear what your saying UnicornForge, which is why I'm not looking to do just re-enactments. No I was an active Confederate re-enactor for 12 years doing a doctor's impression with an infantry Company out of Kentucky. I have been out of the loop for about 4 years now but thought I might get back into it in a small way combining my past impression of a doctor with blacksmithing. As a doctor I gave more talks then anything else educating on medicine in the mid 1800's. As a blacksmith I hope to maybe do the same in showing how blacksmiths made things back then. The events I plan on starting at are small local (100 miles or less) events to just see how it goes. So I more then understand re-enactors and how they look at things dealing with what we called "stitch Nazi's" who always question just how period your look, or if what you use is or is not correct for the time. So to really be making money is not my goal but if I make enough to cover my trip expenses that will be great. What I would really like is to set up and do craft fairs, local festivals and things of that sort. Long years ago I helped my ex-wife at a number of craft fairs so I understand how these things work as well. All I'm looking for is a base idea on pricing and the web sights you gave will help as well as the advice by others. I just don't want to over charge nor undercharge as again I know some events I could get away with more and some asking a little less. As I'm kind of retired now any money made will be a plus. As long as I cover my materials with a little profit to maybe get more to experiment with on new projects would be a pulse to me. All in all I just like the idea of helping to promote blacksmithing or the craft. At least it well as give me something to do as I just can't sit around, I'm not that old just yet. Thanks again for all your help fellows, I do appreciate it. BillP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Try not to step on the toes of people trying to make a living. Easy to screw up a market. Porta-potties? I like being right between the main event and the porta-potties. Best traffic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billp Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 No, I understand and would not want to do that either, that's why I would like as many as will give me there input. Would not be apposed to working out a way to keep prices equal so as not to be under cutting the other, just let the customer chose which they like the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 ........So to really be making money is not my goal but if I make enough to cover my trip expenses that will be great. What I would really like is to set up and do craft fairs, local festivals and things of that sort. Long years ago I helped my ex-wife at a number of craft fairs so I understand how these things work as well. ....BillP I wish you well. My humble observation over 36 years and talking to a bunch of people doing blacksmithing at WBTS (War Between the States, U.S.) is that they usually don't cover their costs of attending events. Demonstrating to the public is great fun, but expecting to break even financially at WBTS events might be a real challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 makeing ends meet is why i am not doing all the local rondezvous anymore ...I stick to large gatherings and travel a long ways to them .It is too much work anymore to setup everything for 2 days as it takes usually a day to setup! unless there is a verry large croud(of public 10,000 per day) or alarge and oriented croud (like reinactors say a thousand or more) your chance of makeing any money is iffy.haveing said that ive been at some small rondezvous and done real good but you cant depend on that.... my best event as far as sales is the puyallup fair in washington state.I am part of a coop of blacksmiths there .We demo the intire fair (17 days 10 til 10 weekdays and 10 to 11 weekends!). It is a good show because of the number of people going thru (1.1 million!).in the reinactor realm ive decided to make the niceer stuff and leave the iron intencive stuff to the newbies and the fabricateors. an example is tent pegs and the fold over grills . they use a lot of steel and dont take much skill to make i decided years ago that i cant make tent pegs at events econmically so i no longer bother . Some people ask why but when i explain that ime traveling 3 states away they usually understand . there is getting to be more ironwork at reinactments that is nowhere near period correct and i am letting people know its a uphill battle tho . the worst to me are the wash basin stands with all the gegaws to hold soap towels ect . they wouldnt have used iron for that before about 1900 as the cost of the metal would have been prohibitive . also they usually are welded together and painted black (like the stuff from china).ok off my soapbox .. have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 dablacksmith makes a lot of sense and his description of what he learned about reenactments pretty much summarizes what I have heard many blacksmiths say over the years. My advice is simply go to have fun and demonstrate for the fun of it as your goal. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brasilikilt Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Wow.... This thread is echoing my plans for the past year or so to build a portable smithy to do reenacting events. What's being written isn't exactly encouraging, but I think it's best to approach this with the mind set that you do it for fun and not to make money. It would be difficult for me to make money at an event that charges you a fee to set up shop there. (the larger events always do) If they know you're making money, they'll want some of it. I thought to myself that I might strictly do demonstrations, but have my nicest work displayed for all to see, and have plenty of business cards to hand out....This might work for later sales for commission type work, but I think a large amount of sales you would get from an event would in large part be from impulse buys. I have also seen, and have been a little disgusted at what some people are selling as 'period correct'. Since I am slowly but surely migrating towards the 'stitch nazi' side of things, I figured I would do reproductions of stuff that had been excavated, or resides in a museum collection somewhere. I think it would help sales a lot with certain re-enactor crowds if you had a binder or something full of pictures and descriptions showing the original items, their origins, and the context in which they were found. Reenactors are there at events to make connections with history, if they like something you make, and you show them, not simply just tell them the origins of that piece, it reinforces the fact that it's likely the closest they'll come to owning an original. I've had certain vendors try to tell me that some cheapo made in China knife made from 440 stainless was 'exactly like' what they used to carry 200 years ago.....Ha-Ha-Ha anyways, I hope these thoughts are of some use to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 30, 2009 Share Posted December 30, 2009 Wow....This thread is echoing my plans for the past year or so to build a portable smithy to do reenacting events. What's being written isn't exactly encouraging, but I think it's best to approach this with the mind set that you do it for fun and not to make money..... Brasilikilt makes excellent points. Reenactments are not the best place to try to make money, many have tried and then quit blacksmithing. If you go for the fun of demonstrating, great. The reenactment community tends to be a relatively small market to try to sell to. At first you might sell a lot of tent stakes and cooking implements, but because of the limited size of the market and the heavy competition from vendors and from lots of beginner smiths, the folks in your area are likely to quickly purchase what they need and not need any more camping ironware. It is sort of like trying to sell camping ironwork to your home neighborhood, eventually they will have purchased enough from you that that limited market just plain won't need anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billp Posted December 30, 2009 Author Share Posted December 30, 2009 Wow it does seem like I opened a can of worms. Again I hear what you all are saying and please believe me I'm not looking at this with any rose colored glasses. I know money will be limited at best so doing well would be a plus but not a must. As far as my look and what I will be selling at re-enactments it will be as right as I can determine. The infantry unite I belonged to for so very long took great prided in our period look. In fact if you came and looked in our camp and my tent it would be like going back into time. Even the camp conversation was more period then not. This again is not to make a living just to add one more item to what I can portray in the 1860's. I just want to be as correct in my pricing as I am in what I sell. I just never liked fingerer wagers who really made beginners feel bad to spite there efforts to try. It takes time and money to build a truly good and correct impression. Gentle guidance always works best. Now craft fairs and that sort that is another matter that might hurt my feelings if I did poor and didn't cover my expenses. But then again we're talking a whole another market of people and things to show and sell. But I'm sure not going to get my hopes up to high either, sometimes you click and sometime you don't. BillP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 .... As far as my look and what I will be selling at re-enactments it will be as right as I can determine. The infantry unite I belonged to for so very long took great prided in our period look. In fact if you came and looked in our camp and my tent it would be like going back into time. Even the camp conversation was more period then not.....BillP Excellent! I am glad to hear that you will be building your equipment to what was actually used by the military during that period, very exciting. The Mordecai drawings, 1861 and 1863 Ordnance Manuals, and the Official Records will be very useful in deciding whether to build one of the three types of portable forges used during that war: the "Traveling Forge", a sheet metal "Portable Forge", or a wooden box forge. Ordnance Manual and the Artillerist’s Manual are available for free download from: http://www.artilleryreserve.org/ And a free searchable copy of the Official Records is available for use at: http://www.civilwar.com. There are over 800 entries in the Official Records for “forge”. More information is available at this thread on this forum: Let us know which of the three correct period forges you plan on constructing. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billp Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 OK UnicornForge you have me a bit over a barrel so to speak. My last statement refereed to what I was going to sell so as not to be selling inappropriate things. MY look, clothing, tent, tools, anvil, and such will look period but as for my forge it may not be 100% correct. It is a simple thing just a very thick table with 1 1/2" sides with a hand blower attached. It had regular tube type legs which I took off and kept and replaced with two straight legs front and two wheels made of steel in back. I got it from a friend who thought he wanted to blacksmith but decided no. He got the forge and anvil from a shop that did renaissance type events. I'm told it's an old shop forge and have been encouraged to build a clay fire pot for it as it has no fire pot just a grate over the air hole. I have the clay still debating on the fire pot. Now being Confederate we do kind of get away with using non-military items as we had to make do what what ever we could find or use. So if my forge will pass for civilian but not military Willll it was just pressed into service like so many other things and should go great with my civilian vest, shirt, and trousers but my kepi is military as my jacket. We Tennessee Rebs were poor to say the least but fought mighty hard. Thats why General Forest was so proud of us. As I also said before it takes time and money to be 100% NO ONE starts off 100%. And yes I will be informing the people that it's not period just as close as I can come for now. When I started as a Doctor it took 6 years to be able to afford a class A officers uniform, till then I was a civilian volunteer or a soldier. Now I could tell you a great deal about medicine at the start but it took a number of years to build my medical bottles, equipment, and uniforms to the look I use now in talks and demonstrations at schools and museums as well as re-enactments. As for blacksmithing I feel it will come the same way at lest I have a jump start on things to be able to do as much as I can for now. As for other smiths I have seen I will be more correct then most. In fact the only smith I have seen to be correct was a tall man from Kentucky who I was told lost to cancer. I have even seen 2 using propane forges. But then when put in the class as a Sutler what you sell is more important then your look. I just hope to work past that over time and get past the finger wagers who may or may not be right. BillP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 ..a hand blower attached. It had regular tube type legs which I took off and kept and replaced with two straight legs front and two wheels made of steel in back. ... Now being Confederate we do kind of get away with using non-military items as we had to make do what what ever we could find or use. So if my forge will pass for civilian but not military Willll it was just pressed into service like so many other things .... BillP I'm not trying to finger wag, just friendly-like educate, so I hope you will take suggestions and information as being friendly. There were zero hand-cranked blowers used in the Civil War. Wheels were wood, with wooden hubs that had iron bands as reinforcement, iron hubs and wheels were not invented till later. ...As I also said before it takes time and money to be 100% NO ONE starts off 100%...... BillP True, no one starts off 100 percent. However, a cheap period option would be a wooden box lined with dirt for the bottom, with a wooden bellows stuck into a hole in the side of the wooden box. That has been documented in the Official Records for Sherman's army, and a photograph exists on the Library of Congress web site for Confederate use. As far as I am concerned I would be happy to see you take whatever you want to a reenactment, but if you want to be period then nailing together some scrounged boards, a few handfuls of dirt, and an old discarded canvas tent or ground-cloth you could have a correct set-up for zero or close to zero cost. Tom A. built a full-sized Traveling Forge including the 57" wheels using scrounged materials for less than $200, a lot of ingenuity, and sweat. There is a fundamental difference between blacksmiths who attend living history events including reenactments, and with reenactors who wish to portray blacksmiths. Blacksmiths take enjoyment in building tools and equipment because tool-making is part of the essence of blacksmithing. On the other hand reenactors who just wish to portray blacksmiths at events do not make tools or equipment, and in my humble observation over 36 years, seem focused on being the center of attention and admiration rather than being focused on blacksmithing. Since blacksmithing at reenactments/history events doesn't result in attention and admiration in proportion to the effort and cost of blacksmithing at these events, the latter soon stops blacksmithing. By placing oneself into the first category a person can enjoy a fun-filled lengthy participation in blacksmithing. I'm not criticizing or finger-waging, just trying to educate and help so that folks who choose to smith at living history events know what they are getting into and can maximize their experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billp Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 I apologize for being a bit touchy on this and do appreciate your efforts in trying to help. It's just that this kind of took a left turn I did not intend to take. I guess for now I'll have to be a blacksmith attending a re-enactment. Right now for me to build another forge (this one would make 3) and bellows that I can travel with would be at the end of a long list of other projects I have to complete. The first being to building my first smithy so I don't work outside any more along with inventory to sell. With the Holidays I have not been able to hit a lick at anything having to finished a long list of honey do's so I can concentrate on what I want, a deal with the wife. I do have drawings for 2 bellows and have seen a picture of Tom's forge if it's the one posted on this sight. When time does permit I will take your suggestion and information, even though Sherman is not one of my favorite people, and look into building one of these forges for the future. Again I do apologize and thanks for your help. BillP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I have always found it funny that my most authentic historical setups have always been the cheapest to build. Of course that is mainly to do with the fact that since I do Y1K stuff I have to make my own as there are not anything I can buy to cheat with... BTW I found that a properly set up double lunged bellows (came into blacksmithing in the early renaissance from the goldsmiths) was much more enjoyable to use than even a good hand crank blower, even for welding up billets! (of course a poorly set up one is a royal PITA) It's about time for me to make a run to the basalt flows and get some firesafe rocks and start on a Y1K forge for this area. Biggest problem out here is often sites have a requirement that no flame devices save for propane are allowed due to very bad fire conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I have always found it funny that my most authentic historical setups have always been the cheapest to build.... Definitely! My first forge mumble-mumble-years ago was a 2ft by 2ft wooden box-forge made from a couple of 2x4s, a 2 by 2ft piece of scrap plywood for the bottom, a couple of bricks, black pipe, pipe cap with slit in the end for air supply, and a small bellows that I threw together. It worked fine. ...I found that a properly set up double lunged bellows ..was much more enjoyable to use than even a good hand crank blower,... I find the click-click of a bellows to be very soothing. The quiet also allows one to talk to the public much easier. I also find a bellows less tiring and less stress on my shoulder joint. Plus, don't underestimate what the public notices, Jay Reakirt built two really nice mid-1800s wheeled traveling forges, but mostly what people remember when I talk to them is that his historic forge used a hidden electric blower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 i agree about bellows being nice to hear coustomers also it looks like your working harder! the down side ive found with bellows is the repairs you have to do after a few years.. not a real big deal but you gota get around to it ... my portable setup is a 2 weeled cart with bellows . it is mostly wood with a shallow firepot made from 14 ga ( a recycled failed helm)about 2 inches deep . when i get around to replaceing it i will go a little deeper. if you go to build bellows the thing i noticed that helps the most is depth . let um open up so u get more volume and the top dosnt need as much as the bottom (1/3 rd to 2/3rds ratio)in my shop i use a hand crank tho .. i set the time period about 1910 and at that time everyone was going to hand cranks . its funny also what people think ive had people tell me the trip hammer is cheating ... then i tell um its probably the oldest tool in the shop (finnigan &mcgowan perfect power hammerbuilt 1903-1907 the early version) . It makes um think sometimes and gives me something to talk to um about. well have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Mulholland - Tetnum Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 i just stick with the dollar a minute approach its easy and if a job requires a special piece of tooling that i have to make that time is added ad $.50 a minute and if the price seams too high dont charge that much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billp Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 I like that idea Tetnum but my only problem is I'm still in the learning stage. I know how to make a number of things but I'm kind of slow as I haven't done a lot of them. Which is why trying to figure time verses cost just doesn't work to well for me. I know as time goes by and with repetition I'll get faster, then your suggestion should work very well. So I will most defiantly keep this on file in my memory and use it later on. Thanks I appreciate it. BillP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 My double lung bellows was repaired one time in 20 years and it was getting towards time to work on it some more when I gave it away. What was your construction that it needed so much work? Shoot mine still had it's original treated canvas "leathers" still good even after being stored outside over the winter a couple of times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Bill P, Enacting is very much a hobby, blacksmithing is a profession. The demand for custom iron work will support a properly aligned shop. However, the market for enacting is rather small and seasonal. Addtitionally, I see that the (enactor) fair goers are for the most part are spectators and they are reluctant to pay market value for hand forged iron. This is just my own opinion in regard the enactors, this might be a thriving market but I have not seen it that way. Custom iron products for home, garden and outdoor cooking events (BBQ etc) are not suffering a turndown in demand. These areas remain strong in regard both price point and product demand. As an example I noted that a small shop in Portland OR located along a tourist walk-way was selling a lot of fireplace too sets. Portalnd OR is not exactly in the snow belt. The demand for the fireplace sets was apparently driven by new (retirement) condo construction in the area. Mostly all the new building has gas fireplaces but the tool sets were selling well nonetheless. The tool sets were all noticably short (<24 in) because gas fireplaces are small in scale and mostly decorative as opposed to functional. Whatever smith was suppling the sets had studied the market and made a product that matched demand and was acceptable s far as price point. A winning formula. As we travel around, I always try to study what works and what does not. Keep the winners. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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