Johnnie C. Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I had the oppertunity to go watch the Guntner's at a demo in Pery, OK last month. Chad Guntner was holding his punch with a set of tongs, I was talking to him about why he did it that way, and he said that you can keep your hands away from the work and it saves room on tooling. I liked the idea and took it and ran with it. Now I'm having trouble, I'm using 01 tool steel and I think I heat treated everything right. I heated to around 1600 degrees, then quinched it oil. Then I bake it in the oven at 450 degrees, until the steel turned a straw color. I was pretty excited to use them today. When I started to use them is when I ran into trouble, they broke in the troat. How might I prevent this from happening again? I have put the rest aside until I can come up with a solution, or before I hurt myself. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Nice job, but the devil is always in the details. Your machining in the tong section looks a little rough. Notice where they broke, there needs to be a generous radius in the corner. Only turn them down a little in that area, not so small. Your tools are dead square on the end and you should have a slight crown. Use even a propane torch to draw the top end more than straw, maybe a nice blue at the top couple inches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Frankly, I'm not at all sure O1 is the steel you want to use for this. Striking tools are usually medium carbon steels like 1045(ish), 4140, etc., which are inherently tough, or S-series shock resistant steels that specifically designed to be beaten on. O1 is around 1% carbon, which gives you very high maximum hardness but also a certain amount of brittleness. (And it's not an ideal steel for primitive heat treating methods, which probably also doesn't help you. You're liable to get carbon and alloying elements elements segregating on the grain boundaries, which promotes brittleness.) But if you must try to make it work with O1, temper them much hotter -- maybe dark blue to start with? Roughly straw color is suitable for knife edges, not striking tools. Grain size seems to be good, from what I can see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 And for the record: in the event that my advice conflicts with Grant's, you should always listen to Grant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spears Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Please forgive me. Peace :-) Edited November 19, 2009 by Spears Felt like I stuck my nose in where I shouldn't have. My appologies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 No Matt, we're on the same track. Although I think O-1 "can" make decent tools, it is less forgiving and you have to work within it's qualities. Remember: "It doesn't matter how many things you did right, if you do one thing wrong". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Spears: Well I can't quite agree. The only danger in not quenching immediately is that the part might crack. Sometimes it does, like an hour later, most times it's fine, roll of the dice. Otherwise, waiting does not affect the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 A slight crown on the end is important whether working by hand or in a power hammer. If it's dead flat it's much easier to hit off center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie C. Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 I tempered them at 450 for an hour and a half. They were cool to the touch when I put them in the oven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I would just like to highlight a potential problem with the use of the tongs shown and the technique of using them. If you use tongs like these to hold your punch in one hand whilst striking it with a hammer held in your other hand, you will damage your wrist, particularly if you have a lot to do Tongs work best when they are used in a vertical manner, if you are going to use them as shown, you need someone to hold them in position whilst the other person strikes I agree with Grant, you have too sharp a corner which will fracture, and that you need a crowned dome on the top, I also do not find it necessary to harden and temper throughout on a punch or cutter, I like to leave the heads and body 'soft', and after forging the working edge/shape usually let it air cool, I find they will stand up quite well in this condition, If it is absolutely vital I will harden and temper just the working end. If you forge in the waisting this will give a better transition leaving a radius at each end of the parallel portion and then forge required shaped end this also seems to toughen up the steel at these points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 OK. I'll give my .02 cents worth since I use tongs in this way a fair amount. I have to disagree with John B a little, sort of. The key to avoiding injury here is to make sure the tools being held are short, and to (as Grant already said) have a good radius/crown on the struck end of the tool. One more thing I wanted to point out here is the heat treat for O1 is generally more like 1500, and it likes to soak for 30 minutes to get everything into solution before it is quenched. Lastly, There's no need to turn or forge the waist so small, you just need enough of a shoulder for the tongs to not slip up or down the tool. Incidently, the reason I made my tongs and went to this method was that I got a rippin' deal on short 3" - 5" drops of 1/2" 4140 and 4340. Way too short to hang onto by hand, perfect for the chisel tongs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakksmyth Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I thought I would post a picture of a tong design I've seen in my travels. It may give you some ideas. Good Luck Cheers, Rob Kenning Secretary Artist Blacksmiths Association South Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgtwister Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 heres the specs for 01 Speedy Metals Information for O1 Tool Steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 As I said in the original post, I just wanted to highlight a potential problem using tongs in this manner, the use of a slip ring on the handles would help to alleviate this as you do not have to exert pressure to keep the punch held firm. I agree that the cost savings on the lengths of tool steel being used is a significant one, but costs are not always just financial, just take care and be aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie C. Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 John B, My opinion is holding the tongs is no different from holding the hammer in your hand. You don't have to have death grip on the tongs, thats part of the reason for the collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easilyconfused Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 I'd use a tong clip if it was me. I've started using them more often and it's made a huge difference in how my tong arm feels after a session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) I'm curious about the end use, hot work or cold work? If used on hot work, you need not do any machining. Just hold the straight shank firmly with the "link tongs." If you forge the blade and tapered portions, it is advisable to anneal before hardening, 1400-1450 Edited November 20, 2009 by Frank Turley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Its still not a 'natural' grip holding the tongs at 90 degrees, and I do know of people who have suffered due to just following what they have seen somebody else do, without understanding the more detailed implications of the application. I am afraid I will still have to agree to differ with our opinions, I am merely pointing out a proven point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie C. Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Show me the facts, and you might persuad in a different direction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Its still not a 'natural' grip holding the tongs at 90 degrees, and I do know of people who have suffered due to just following what they have seen somebody else do, I am afraid I will still have to agree to differ with our opinions, I am merely pointing out a proven point I am sorry to say that one of these guys who suffered this worked for me, and he also thought he knew better after seeing a demonstration by a now internationally renowned 'smith, unfortunately he forgot to say that when this method was demostrated, there was a striker, and a smith, it cost me his wages and lost production capacity until he could come back to work, which was a few weeks, and then we also forged him a copper cuff to help support the wrist until he recovered. (Still in the workshop as a reminder somewhere, perhaps you need a picture?) Those are the facts, I am merely saying be aware, it was not meant to be as controversial as it appears to have turned out to be, I just felt I had to point this out, and if it has helped to prevent anyone else suffering, then it has served its purpose, You learn by your mistakes, but its not as painful if you learn by someone elses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie C. Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 I appreciate it I didn't mean to make it controversial. When I read this forum you get a lot of hear say and no facts. I do plan to use a tong clip, and Its not something I use repeatedly. Most of my work does not involve punches and such. Sorry If I seemed to ba a butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) " When I read this forum you get a lot of hear say and no facts". Oh? Then go elsewhere or don't ask questions. In the future I'll remember when you post to keep my "hearsay" to myself, I guess. Well, if it walks like a butt and quacks like a butt............ Edited November 21, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnie C. Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 I did not mean a offend anyone. Your tips as far how to heat treat the steel was helpful and your concerns were taken into consideration. Sometimes I read things with the wrong attitude and I apoligize. Thank you very much for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 I did not mean a offend anyone. Your tips as far how to heat treat the steel was helpful and your concerns were taken into consideration. Sometimes I read things with the wrong attitude and I apoligize. Thank you very much for your help. Thank you for that, I was not particularly offended, just wanting to alert people to potential problems, and will continue to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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