manothewoods Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I am still very green to stick welding and have just finished my first project of building a forge, however th welds look reall messy where I have tried to create the fillets and I have only managed to get adherance to both pieces of metal at random points. I have looked at a lot of resources on the web and havetried altering the angle of arc, the amperage, the arc length, made sure the metal was clean etc. I seem to bve able to get the weld material to adhere really neatly but only to one part either the horizontal piece or the vertical piece. I am really confused and a bit frustrated as I can do really neat welds on the flat but as I said barely get any join when it comes to welding 2 bits at a 90 degree angle to each oher. any help greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wd&mlteach Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Lots of questions, sorry. What rods are you using(number & diameter)? How do you store them? How old are they? What is the thickness you are trying to weld? What welder do you have? What amperage are you setting it at? and What does clean metal mean to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 When doing a flat/vertical fillet weld, proper rod motion is needed. You can't just drag the rod down the center of the joint. I make a motion that looks like a bunch of backward capitol letter L s laying on their backs, when veiwed fron left to right. I start by bringing the rod up the vertical a bit, then down and to the right, then back and up, down and to the right, each time progressing a little further. This ensures a proper fillet. I use the same technique for stick or MIG, but not for TIG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Type of rod is important. 7014 and 7014 are both good but 6013 often leaves a slag trail and voids down the middle of a fillet. You need to weave side to side and be able to see the weld deposition through your helmet. This also means learning to differentiate between slag and weld metal as certain rods are harder to use. Although it doesn't lay down a bunch of metal, I actually think 6011 is about the easiest to learn since there is very little liquid slag so most of what you see will be metal transferring and you'll be able to move the puddle if it's concentrated on one side of the joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manothewoods Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 In answer to a few questions I have been trying to weld 2mm steel at 90 degrees to each other i.e an L shape. I have the AC welder (Clarke Welder (UK make) set at just below 60 amperes. The metal is cleaned from dirt grease and is sanded so it is shiny I found that this made striking the arc much easier. The rods I have been using say that they are general purpose 1.6mm electrodes ideal for welding mild steel blah blah I cannot seem to find any numbers like the ones mentioned in this thread or have any idea where to obtain them in the uk. I nievely thought that these would be okay. When I finish running a seam it looks okay and then I chip off the slag and there is rarely a bond between both bits of metal. I am having trouble differentiating between the slag and the metal in the weld puddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manothewoods Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 I have attached some pictures to show the trouble I have been having. This mess was made using a 2mm rod with 2mm steel, supported with a magnetic welding clamp ( I have tried using non magnetic clamp and there is no difference) earth is connected to right end of piece or bottom depending on which picture you look at. The amperage was a little over 60 amps. I tried to use the the L shape as suggested above but again metal was deposited on either side but with no join between the 2. Pic 1 was weld before slag removal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 That definitely looks like rod issues. Put those rods on a back shelf somewhere and go buy some 3/32" 6011. Don't be afraid to experiment with the amperage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manothewoods Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 In the uk websites I only seem to be able to find 6013 do you think I should try some of those instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) I highly agree with arftist to go buy some 3/32" 6011, it has higher penetrating ability and is a fast-freeze rod so it works well on vertical welds, and penetrates better. From your photographs it appears that your amperage is not high enough, because the welds are sitting very high at 60 amps. Looking at the chart Electrodes and Amps you will see that 6013 is a low penetration rod, and would probably work better at a higher amperage. So you likely have multiple issues: - rod you are using is likely not be a "fast freeze" rod, and likely does not do well on vertical welds. - amperage is likely too low. - rod you are using may require special surface preparation. - you are doing the vertical weld as a straight up movement rather than a side to side movement as described by arftist. Personally, I took a non-credit welding course at a community college and feel such courses greatly improve safety and reduce frustration. Also, have plenty of ventilation, proper grounding, and have the correct lens on your helmet. You are dealing with a process that can seriously damage you, kill or poison you. Edited September 5, 2009 by UnicornForge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispy Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Manothewoods, The answer to your problem is simple. "Get rid of the magnetic Welding Clamps". They are pulling the liquid metal (molten weld) away from the joint. I am a reasonable welder and I have experienced the same problem some years back. Try holding them or clamping them into position with a G clamp or locking pliers and tack weld the ends and a few spots in between if it is to be a long weld. Remove your clamps and start welding as you normally do. Looking at the pictures it's hard to be exact but the travel speed looks to be a little fast. Start away from yourself and work towards yourself not dragging the electrode but letting it collapse with heat naturally. Once you have established the correct speed on a scrap piece, then start with your weaving motion to widen the fillet and stitch the 2 pieces together. Also lay the material on it's back as it is much easier to weld horizontal. If you can't do that Vertical Up welds are the go but you have to travel much quicker and watch out for the molten slag blobs getting in your boots. Good luck. ps Welding magnets are good for holding up your paper plans to the side of your tin shed or metal door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrispy Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Manothewoods, Welding clean metal is easier but is not essential if you are just knocking up a non structural forge or framework. However in saying, traces of slag deposits from previous welds can be a curse if trying to fill holes etc. it acts like a volcano and keeps spewing out leaving the same hole your trying to fix. Use a scribe to remove the deposit and your well on your way. but less time cleaning up the steel initially unless its loose crusty rust which will result in crappy and weak welds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manothewoods Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 many thanks to all the responses, I have just tried uppiing the amperage and this seems to help a little although burnthrough is becoming a problem and removing the slag is very difficult. All the suggestions about trying different rods are great and I want to give that a go, does anyone know of a place that sells a variety of rods in the uk? Thanks also for the safety prompt, I have a full face mask with glass lense of the required spec- I like to be able to use my eyes. Although much of the work I am doing is non structural I am a bit of a perfectionist and I would like my welds to look neat as well as serve a purpose oh and chrispy thanks for the info on hole filling no wonder I can't seem to fill some of the gaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wd&mlteach Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) I would also try welding something a little thicker to start out. I know I am not the best welder in the world but I am better than my students and that is all I really have to be. When I start them out I show them this PowerPoint from Lincoln and I give them this Handout from Miller. I also start them out with 1/8 inch (3.175 millimeter) rods and 1/8" x 1" band. For beginners it is easier to maintain correct arc length with a bigger rod. You said you are using 2mm thick stock and rods. If my math is correct that is a thickness of 0.078740" or **14 gauge sheet metal, pretty thin stuff to be welding. I am not saying this weld can't be done, but thicker with my experience seems to be easier for people to learn, that is if your welder can handle a thicker rod. I also agree with Chrispy, he has it right. A magnet clamp with thin stock can make the metal do weird things. Edited September 5, 2009 by wd&mlteach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlarkin Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 "Get rid of the magnetic Welding Clamps". They are pulling the liquid metal (molten weld) away from the joint. Sounds reasonable, BUT- Metal turns non magnetic above it's CURIE point, which is about 768c. Typical arc welding filler is around 3100c. To me it looks like the rod is being held too far out once the arc is started, causing it to jump. Try sticking the tip in the puddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Your travel speed is way too fast and/or arc length too long - so the puddle is not forming. Slow down and weave from side to side after the puddle has formed at the beginning of the weld. Rule of thumb for arc length is typically no greater than twice the diameter so a 2mm rod would have no more than a 4mm arc length while burning. I can almost guarantee that "General purpose" rod is 6013, which is problematic at best. As others have said, buy some 6011 and practice. Edited September 5, 2009 by HWooldridge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 In the uk websites I only seem to be able to find 6013 do you think I should try some of those instead? Dude! you have 6013 already. Save that stuff for when you are more skilled and buy some 6011. A lot of other good points have been made. I don't think your arc lenght is a problem, because you said you made good beads on single plates, but it could be. Even 2x rod diameter is too much. Also travel speed could be an issue. Train yourself to look for the puddle, that is literaly a puddle of molten metal right where the welding rod is pointing at the metal. Also, as wood and metal teacher pointed out, do yourself a favor and get some thicker metal, nothing wrong with 1/4"(6mm) for practice, that is what I was taught with. And teach is also correct about the 1/8" rod diameter, though I hesitated to say that initialy, since I don't know if your power supply can melt it. You need at least 80 amps to burn 1/8" 6011. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Your travel speed is way too fast and/or arc length too long - so the puddle is not forming. Slow down and weave from side to side after the puddle has formed at the beginning of the weld. Rule of thumb for arc length is typically no greater than twice the diameter so a 2mm rod would have no more than a 4mm arc length while burning. I can almost guarantee that "General purpose" rod is 6013, which is problematic at best. As others have said, buy some 6011 and practice. Didn't mean to paraphrase you H.W., just proof that great minds think alike I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Didn't mean to paraphrase you H.W., just proof that great minds think alike I guess. Looks like several of us are coming to the same conclusions simultaneously (or put another way..."great minds think alike")... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manothewoods Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 okay so I have 6013 but where in the uk can I buy the other rods as most places only seem to sell 6013? Thge comments about arc length are interesting as are travel speed as I have also tried running the rod pretty much in the puddle and holding it there for a reasonable amount of time but I seem to just get larger amounts of weld forming on either side of the join? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 The UK has to have welding supply distributors who carry these rods or the European equivalents. I know that ESAB is an international supplier. Try this link:Find a distributor or service centre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manothewoods Posted September 8, 2009 Author Share Posted September 8, 2009 Many thanks to you all for your input, I ave just purchased some 2.5mm mildtrode electrodes and these seem to make fillets without too many problems. The guy I spoke with also gave me some pointers and even offerred to come round if I had any further difficulties, its nice to know that there are people out there that will help a fella in need. Many thanks to HWooldridge for the link as this was how I found this place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horseshoe182 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Looks to me that your speed is to fast and or arc is to great. Greater penitrating rods aren,t really needed, as you,ll problerbly blow the crap out of the 2mm sheet anyway. A steel or copper backing plate will always aid in excessive heat dissipation. Welding 2mm material is not easy with a stick, a mig is ideal. As someone here said, the smaller the rod the harder it is. Welding 2mm stuff you will need speed and good control. You could practice first on some light plate to get your hand and eye in. A shade 9 lens is what I would use on this light stuff. Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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