color to work steel at?

[tatertatum]

I've been searching thread after thread and now I'm confused even worse. Some times people say work the steel at an orange heat others say work at a yellow heat and all the videos Ive bought and watched show the steel being worked at white hot.
If I'm not welding just drawing out say 1/2 round stock to a point do i need it white hot.
I know this is like the most basic question but Ive worked steel at all three and white hot goes faster but it takes alot more fuel. Can i do basics at Orange or am i just doing damage to my self working it at such low temps.:confused:

[thecelticforge]

That will depend on the steel. I recently made a cod chisel out of an old jack hammer bit. If it approached bright red, it would begin to crack. So I had to work it in the dull red zone. For the most part, I get the metal as hot as I can without damaging it so I will have longer work times.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Don't be fooled by video! Cameras are not designed to record light sources. It's like pointing a flashlight into the lens. Most cameras do a poor job of recording hot steel, and it usually looks hotter than it is.

[double_edge2]

hi usually a orange to bright orange depending on type of steel as "thecelticforge" says.
coil springs seem to do that to me, lose integrity at or just before bright orange to wet. then you got to cut off half an inch or so and go again.

[Ten Hammers]

Well bud, it will depend on your forge location and the lighting. This is mild steel I'm talking about ( the 1/2 rod you speak of ). Will assume you are using coal. A lot of other facts will fall into place as well.

If you have a reasonably dark space to forge (inside a building, no lighting really close) you will see through multiple fires and forgings that you may notice the steel coming out of the fire with some scale on it. This scale should be loose (you can scrape it off with a fire poker or a piece of other steel). This is the place I like to forge. The scale will come off as you forge and stay on the anvil. Continue to keep the scale wiped off the face of the anvil after each heat.

The amount of scale on the stock coming out of the fire will be dependent on the forge (firepot) and the amount of blast you are applying. It will also depend on the fire building skills you have and the coal you are using to a degree. It will also depend on the placement of the stock IN the fire. After some experimentation you will notice that placing the stock level into the fire (level in relation to the pot) and having a bit of cover over the stock will result in smaller amount of scale. This is tough to do with long stock and a small forge that has higher sides. The fire should be deep up from the blast grate to have at least a few inches of coked coal under the stock to stop the oxydizing effects of the blast and have some cover over the stock to be making coke for the continuation of the fire. There will come a place however that the fire under is too deep and you are not getting enough heat fast enough. Some coal will burn out under the stock pretty fast and leave a hollow to be re-filled with coke. You will also notice that green coal (unburned) will stick to the stock.

Long winded answer to your original question. Try this; Fire the forge and stick the piece of 1/2 rod in the fire. Blast this fire, continually looking at the stock until it sparkles a bit (you will see some little bitty meteorite lookin sparks comin out of the fire with the stock in the fire with a moderate blast and some coke cover). THis is really too hot. Back off from that a bit and you will see really loose scale and a fair bit of it on the face of the anvil (but you see no sparks on the stock or from the fire). Back off some more and the scale is still tight on the stock when you remove it from the fire but you can see some scale. Back off more and you will see color in the stock and no scale.

Depending on my needs, the second from the top is where I forge AND where I heat to bend in a fixture for the most part. The color is well, the color. I'll call it bright color but I really don't concentrate on the hue of the color (other than to take a look and see it ain't bright enough yet). You get outside in the daylight without a hood or shade on the forge and thie same game applies but you really have to pay attention. Experience will be your guide. Your hammer selection will make a difference as well (as will anvil height, forging posture and reaction time with hot stock in your hand). I would get some stock and cut it into 18" or so long pieces so not to have to use tongs. Heat 5-6 " on the end and forge to a point if you wish. Make a little bitty pigtail on the end. Quench the pigtail only, place that pigtail UP and strike on the horn to turn a hook end (down around the horn). Repeat on the other end or make a straight end and forge down flat to make a "J "hook. You will notice after a time you may pay less attention to the colors and will be seeing the stock at a brightness friendly to moving the stock with the hammer. You will develop a standard even stroke on the hammer and find that the hotter you have the stock, the easier it moves and the less effort you use. You will also split a few ends when you are pointing the stock and learn about beating too cold. This is all about mild steel (plain old manurealloy you buy today or perhaps some scrap you have). Higher carbon steel will be a bit different. I might also add that a fresh fire has no clinker. As you forge in this fire you may or may not acquire clinker. This will mean that you may see the little sparks coming from the fire without any stock in the fire. Will deal with that on a later post.

You COULD attend a hammer in. Associating yourself with some smiths in your area will help you to learn (good or bad ) new habits. Watching someone else forge can take years off your learning curve.

Edited August 29, 2009 by Ten Hammers

[dickb]

I'm a relatively new blacksmith and have forge welded without too many problems, so here goes.

I am using a coal forge and pea size anthracite coal. Not sure if this is the best choice of coal but that's what is easy for me to get.

I'm using mild steel and have welded 1/2 inch square stock and 3/4 inch square stock.

It says in the books to scarf the ends, so that's what I did.
Next I heated the work to bright red heat and sprinkled 20 Mule Team Borax on it. The borax bubbled and melted to a nice glassy coating.

Put the work back into the forge and heated to yellow.
Pulled the steel out and gave it a quick flip to throw off any dirt or ash on it and positioned one piece on top of the other and hammered with moderate blows starting from the middle and working toward the edges.
I did this as fast as I could, without dropping the work into my shoe.

It works fine.

I think you have to be careful not to melt the end of the pieces you are welding and make sure the surfaces are properly fluxed. And of course the work cools real fast to you have to work quickly.

Hope this helps.

[JohnW]

Tatertatum, as you've said and others, you can work mild steal at a wide range of heats. You probably just want to stop beating the steel by the time it's cooled down to black, to avoid cracking, and you want to get it out of the forge before it starts sparking, do avoid pitting.

[Jeff Bly]

Well known Blacksmith Bob Patrick gave a demonstration on this recently, as far as forge welding. You heat the metal just until you get hints of sparks beginning to show. At this point the metal is almost a white hot, definitely a bright yellow. The sparks let you know that you are up to welding temperature. If you keep the metal in any longer you begin to burn away your metal, hence the sparks. If you are not sure what the sparks should look like, they will resemble a sparkler you light on the 4th of July. If you are not sure play with a piece of metal until you are confident that you are removing the metal in time.

[Dragons lair]

Jeff, You got it right, play with it. My yellow may not be yours. My lighting may not be yours. Use what works for you. If you see black at 2400 degrees use it. What you see
depends on age, shop lighting and how much bourbon while waiting for heat. GRIN
Ken