Pots and pans

[Phil Patrick]

Looking for a nice picture or photo of a sheet iron pot, circa 1820-1840. This will be for some western fur trade people. At the very least some starting dimensions to go by would also be very helpful.

As usual thank you very much!

[Mike Ameling]

Looking for a nice picture or photo of a sheet iron pot, circa 1820-1840. This will be for some western fur trade people. At the very least some starting dimensions to go by would also be very helpful.

As usual thank you very much!

The booklet The Packet by Mark Tully has a 2-page article on Camp Kettles - with documentation. His time period focus is Rev War, but the information covers a lot more years before and after that.

Common sizes were: 9 1/4 inches tall by 9 1/2 wide; 7 1/2 tall by 7 1/2 to 8 inches wide (the original was smooshed). These two were from Fort Ligonier in Pennsylvania. Two from Ft. Meigs Ohio were 11 1/2 wide by 11 1/2 tall, and 9 3/4 wide by 9 7/8 tall. Height to diameter seems to be pretty much the same. Bail attachments were either "dog-ear" lugs riveted on (a strip bent in half passing over the rim and then held with two rivets - with a hole for the bail), or just two holes punched through the sides just beneath the rim.

The other key detail is that bottom seam. It should not look like the seam on a modern bean or coffee can. It should be a flat circle with the outside edge bent up and the straight sides slipped down into it and soldered. Those "crimped" seams came in after those hand-cranked tinsmith machines started to be used in the 1840's and later.

Several tinsmiths make good reproductions - but from tinned sheet iron. One that I can think of right now is Backwoods Tin - Bob Bartelme (sp). Another is Carl Giordano. And the Civil War vendor C&D Jarnigan. They all have the correct bottom seams on their kettles, but do make other items with more modern tinsmithing methods.

I've been trying to get Jim Kimpell from Fort Dodge Iowa to start making some straight sheet iron kettles instead of using tinned sheets. But so far he just works with the electroplated tin or the hand-dipped tin. I have threatened to make some up - from around 20 gauge sheet iron. But then I'd have to learn to solder effectively.

I hope this helps give you some ideas to go with.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

[Phil Patrick]

Fantastic info!
I will keep everyone posted as this project matures.

[Mike Ameling]

I forgot to mention. These "kettles" are simple straight-sided round ... pails. The sides come straight up, not flared or tapered. And the top edge can be left just as-is when cut off (if your metal is thick enough), or with the top rolled/bent back onto itself, or rolled over a wire to help stiffen the rim. Some were even then "tinned" on the inside to help with rust and cleaning - like the brass kettles were.

If you go down to one of the hardware stores, you can often find a "milk pail" that is very similar - made by Behrens. But it has that machine rolled/crimped bottom seam like bean/coffee cans. It also has bail lugs riveted on the sides and down a ways from the rim - to allow clearance for a stamped iron lid. A one gallon version of the old 5 gallon "shotgun" can for milk.


Sheet iron "kettles" show up in various trade goods lists and journals from the early 1700's on well up into the 1800's. They were a standard British Military issue cooking pot - one per 8 man mess group. Those 6 to 8 men in that "mess group" took their issued raw food, combined it in their kettle/pot, and cooked it for themselves. The only ... chow line ... was the cooks/kitchens for the officers. The soldiers had to cook their own food. The preferred British Military method being -- boiling. But very few originals survived. They tended to rust away. The couple originals that have been found are usually smooshed. One was found in the bottom of a post hole at Fort Ligonier. It had been flattened and the tossed down into the bottom of the hole for the post to rest on.


Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

[Walking Dog]

Mike - your information on pots is very interesting to me. I'm always looking for good blacksmith items in my period (Ohio frontier, about 1760-1810).

With uncrimped, soldered seams, I can see why there are few survivors! A few seconds over a campfire after the pot boils dry, and it would come unglued.

Is the authentic sheet iron as thin as 20 gauge? Were there any forge welded examples that you know of? Is cast authentic for this time period?

Just hoping you can enlighten me.

[Mike Ameling]

There are a few examples where a few rivets were used to hold the kettles together - but mostly just to hold them until they were soldered. But after making a couple Viking era riveted sheet iron kettles, they could have been riveted instead of soldered. Yes, the seam will "leak" a little. But with use the seam will seal up with a combination of food and rust/crud. Swirling some flour and cornmeal in water in the kettle will go a long ways towards sealing up the seams. Just clean the inside surface well before cooking in it.

But the riveted kettles have an earlier European/Medieval look and feel to them. They can be pushed up into the 1800's, but take a little more ... justifying.

Sheet iron rolling mills were developed pretty early. Even the Romans had their versions. It sure beats hand-hammering sheet from thick billets/blocks. So there are no problems with thin sheet well back into the 1700's, 1600's, and earlier - even as thin as 20 gauge. The sheets used for making "tin" are a prime example of that. The original size of the sheets was a limitation of the width of the rolling mills. And the lengths were limited by the size of the tanks to melt the tin and dip the sheets in.

Forge welding thin sheet is always problematic. That is why you see a lot of riveting or soldering of thin sheet objects. Far less chance of damaging the sheet in the process.

Cast iron kettles/pans get problematic before the mid 1800's when the molding/casting process was greatly improved. Before that, the mold for each item had to be hand-made, and was a one-time-use mold. And casting the bulged pots (gypsy or witches kettles) was even harder because of that bulged inside mold.

So cast iron kettles/pots did exist, but you have to pay attention to lots of the little "details" of their shape/style. Like the bale ears - they should look like the number 7 sticking out from the kettle. The bottom casting sprue should be a round spot in the center instead of a long thin line sprue.

And that infamous ... Dutch Oven ... (like the Lodge versions currently being sold) only came into common use just before the Civil War, but mostly after that. Other things were used to "bake" over/around a camp fire. A Tourtiere would be one such object - a sheet iron/brass pan/lid combo used much like a modern "dutch oven", but of French origin going back well into the 1600's.

Just a few rambling thoughts/observations. I hope they answer some of your questions.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. A couple books to check out for early cooking gear.
Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution - Neumann/kravic
Early American Antique Country Furnishings - Neumann
Decorative Antique Ironwork - D'Aliemagne
Iron and Brass Implements of the English and American House - J Seymour Lindsay

[ThomasPowers]

I can't date rolling mills much earlier than the 1600's however "Batter mills" for making sheet metal do go real far back.

Rolling mill cite: "Ironworks on the Saugus" (ISBN: 9780806109572)
Hartley, Edward N; mentioning that the rolling mill at the Sagus Ironworks was one of the earliest ones

A reference to a batter mill can be found in "The Royal Armoury at Greenwich 1515-1649 (ISBN: 094809222X / 0-948092-22-X), Williams Alan De Reuck Anthony which mentions accounts for iron being sent out to a battermill to be reduced into sheet for armour making"

Also personal communication at the Medieval Technology Conference held at Penn State about 20 years ago where I discussed the remains of a circa 900 CE tidal powered mill used for iron work with one of the presenters.

Mike can you point me at a cite for Roman's using rolling mills in ironworking? I'd like to check it out.

[dablacksmith]

ive made a couple of the viking type rivited iron pots they do leak but the way to seal them is oatmeal!! i cooked some oatmeal in one and just kept adding a little more oatmeal and a little more water ... at first it leaked like a sieve but it sealed up pretty fas with the oatmeal ... after its all sealde you need to char the oatmeal that is in the cracks so it dosnt wash out when cleaning ....got the idea from another reinactor it could be te original way they sealed um.....have fun

[Mike Ameling]

I can't date rolling mills much earlier than the 1600's however "Batter mills" for making sheet metal do go real far back.

Rolling mill cite: "Ironworks on the Saugus" (ISBN: 9780806109572)
Hartley, Edward N; mentioning that the rolling mill at the Sagus Ironworks was one of the earliest ones

A reference to a batter mill can be found in "The Royal Armoury at Greenwich 1515-1649 (ISBN: 094809222X / 0-948092-22-X), Williams Alan De Reuck Anthony which mentions accounts for iron being sent out to a battermill to be reduced into sheet for armour making"

Also personal communication at the Medieval Technology Conference held at Penn State about 20 years ago where I discussed the remains of a circa 900 CE tidal powered mill used for iron work with one of the presenters.

Mike can you point me at a cite for Roman's using rolling mills in ironworking? I'd like to check it out.

I'll have to dig a bit. I can't recall just where I read it, but it might be in the book Iron For The Eagles: The Iron Industry of Roman Britain by Sim and Ridge isbn 0-7524-1900-5. Or in one of the Viking era books I have. There was some info in The Chronicle - the quarterly newsletter from the Early American Industries group, but I can't remember the specifics and it's been a couple years since I went through those back issues. I gotta dig them back out from beneath the stacks of books.

So I will see if I can find those early references.

Right now it's time to get back to making some 1700's style iron shovels, and then converting them to be used as a frypan. There is one original dated to the Rev War time period. A bunch of the mid/late 1700's living history reenactors have finally accepted that there really is no documentation for their "folding handled" skillets/frypans with socketed handle for use with a wood stick. And they are now desperately searching for something/anything with a socket for a removable wood handle, instead of the documented looooong handled skillets/frypans of that time period. They just don't like packing a pan with a long handle when hiking the hills. So I'm replicating that one soldier's improvised frypan from a shovel.

Mikey

[ThomasPowers]

Thanks for keeping an eye open for the cites; I really am interested!

Some re-enactment groups will strongly filter outliers to keep a camp from being *all* outliers that folks like. (ie: if there has been only 1 of something dug up and 99 of something that does the same job only 1 or the first ones will be allowed in camp for every 100 of the others...)

I'm guilty of wanting my own set up of cooking tools myself; Shoot I must have as many hand forged kitchen tools as some villages did in the early middle ages!