myloh67 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 As soon as I find the appropriate space I have plans to install a well travelled 2cwt clear space. Manufactured in Manchester, England in '54 and commissioned by a New Zealand company at the time made its way back home for a spell and now awaits its new tasks here in Ireland. Scale working its way down under the anvil. Is there material that can seal the void between anvil and foot casting to keep scale out and prevent anvil from going on the cock? Cheers, Michael:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Russell Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Myloh, when we installed MOONY'S 7 ctw Massey all he got us to do was fill the void with sand ,, packed it in pretty hard too . Ran hammer for awhile topped up sand , as far as i know it's still sitting flush with the base of hammer Dale Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Timber wedges between the Anvil block and the baseplate. Keeps everything tight and aligned aswell. When you have tightened the wedges a few times after the hammers been used a bit cut them off flush with the baseplate and put an angle iron cover over them. Good hammer by the way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewOC Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 i have seen the same as John N writes about, tight very well fitted wedges. If one leaves say an inch above the hammer frame 'ring' (the octagonal hole the anvil pokes up thru) u can tighten the wedges down with the angle iron ring above them, the ring fills with scale, tending to seal off going underneath. another method i've seen is on Ultimo tech's 3cwt Massey; a heavy sheetmetal shroud/ apron around the anvil down over the hammer frame opning. Good luck. Probably best to research your anvil mat material well, the above machine suffered from a lopsided anvil a few years (c1999) after installation on substandard stuff... sorry i've forgotten what it was, rubber or more likely cork?? Maybe another forum member will know the proper answer! Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 Fine methods and will consider them all. The pads I have for anvil are fabreeka, I believe are of good quality. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 My way is right Use a 2 part polysulphide sealant around your anvil base / fabreeka mat (thioflex 600 PG or similar) this will keep the scale from under the mat. Firmly secure the anvil down the hole with timber wedges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Hi Micheal We wedged our anvil down around the base as well as around the octagonal with fitted wooden wedges (that means 2 places top and bottom) with fitted angle rings on top of both. The bottom wedges were driven in either with a sledge hammer or a jack hammer addapted to hit the wedges. The top angle ring we made a very tight fit on the anvil, (still able to lift by hand but well fitting) stops 99% of the scale from falling down into the bottom void. We also used rubber conveyer belt under the anvil. Moony found that his anvil did move, we should have put all the sand and tar around it before we put the hammer onto it, don't know if it has settled down now or not. When we 1st installed our 5 we only wedged at the top and the anvil started bouncing about, had to lift it and re do as above. Our 5's anvil has been in for over 10 years now with no movement or miss alignment. The stuff used at Ultimo 1st time around was a cork based compound. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I've also seen lead used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 Time is getting close folks. Found that workshop space I was looking for, all my tools are on site, foundation 6x4x4ft is dug out (gravediggers beware!!).On the move again - Blacksmith Photo Gallery I fabricated in metal the formwork for the concrete having taken template of its base casting. One tip I got was to sleeve my three foot long inch and quarter threaded rod inside of inch and 3/4box section to allow a some play. Also these hammers were designed when the average height of a guy was 5ft4" (something i heard John.. truth?!). Massey's spec states top of anvil pallet 26" from floor. I have fabricated a box in 2mm sheet bringing the top of found 6" above floor, im getting 32". Think ill ditch the zimmerframe in the hole for reinforcing:rolleyes: So have left a 4" void around the box. I've got fabreeka pads under anvil, concrete 40 newton, steel wall, 1 3/4 polystyrene, dry sand and the dirt. Hopefully all going well will see a pour early next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I've theorized that part of the reason for the very low elevation of hammers was a lack of power hoisting gear in the old shops. Because of this, they mounted everything at the same elevation so that they only needed to swing with the crane. As large hammers dominated the industry the height was also governed by the position you hold work. Large work is generally held with your arm extended all the way down at your side. On small hammers like this, you're usually holding the work in front of you with your arms extended. After installing hammers higher and higher, I finally settled on 38 - 40" to the bottom die. I HATE bending over. This height seemed to work well for people 5'10" - 6' 2". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 not sure about the real reason they were so low, we are deffinatly taller now though! Cant see the crane theory holding much water, since they go up and down The base plate was set flush with the floor so it diddnt present a tripping hazard. Lots of people worked the small hammers sitting down, and still do in some industrial forges. On a 2 or 3 cwt a layer of rail sleepers works nicely under the hammer baseplate to bring the height up 5" or so. Nice house in the background of those pics by the way, is it yours??? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 John N: Well it was just a theory. Yeah they do go up and down, but it was often a hand operated differential hoist (chain fall) that is quite cumbersome to be adjusting up and down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted July 26, 2009 Author Share Posted July 26, 2009 No John this house is definately not mine, how would you heat it? On a long weekend excursion through Wales in a narrow boat, i found myself scrunched up like an accordian trying to sleep in a bunk, me i'm 6ft2", the bunk..victorian design again. I ended up on the floor, we've come a long way since then..haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Just another manic monday.. I had the formwork for the hammer found pretty much all rapped up by sat and to double check everything was hunky dory, checked on the ram the mark depicting safe working height. Using this as my datum realized that my initial measurements based on masseys anvil pallet face height from floor of 26" was short by 2 3/4". Big wet fish on back of head, and all down to my own inexperience. Obvisously various heights of anvil were produced. It pays to take your time, measure three time and cut once here. Today i've saved myself a lot of heartbreak, and unfortunately heartbreak (ram housing break) has happened in the past. Forever open to learning. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Send more pics of that machine while in operation when you are ready.Can't wait to see them,Mick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 John N: Here're a great video to support my theory, watch the guy on the hoist:YouTube - Forge Welding - 1904 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Still not really buying the theory t.b.h! , the hearth would just be made at the same height as the bottom tool on a power hammer to save the manual hoisting! All the anvils on the Masseys were a pretty standard height. I allways tell customers to check the height of the anvil, as a good precentage of these 50+ year old machines have had the dovetail broken off, and the anvil remachined! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) John: What I'm theorizing is that hearth and the hammer were made to the height of a working anvil. Even in big work they used the anvil a lot and that height is pretty fixed at +/- 26 inches. Swing from the fire to the anvil or hammer. If you raise the forge (hearth) then the anvil is at a different height than everything else. Actually we're getting away from the whole point: They liked everything at 26" starting with the anvil. 26"- 30" is a nice height for large work too. So that became the "standard" height for hammers. Today we're stuck with that even on hammers where it makes less sense. Edited July 29, 2009 by nakedanvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 One hearth i had 100yr +/-, side blast cast iron construct. This had a large square area, quite a beast. I had this up on sleepers to bring it up to a reasonable level alternatively my belt would have been up around my chest due to some slight modification of my anatomy. I think like Grant your arm needs to be extended fully when forging heavy section, with or without gantry, if not, you will destroy yourself physically within a half a day. I only have the one hammer and will have the anvil height pallet face set for 31.5 inches of the floor allowing myself to work large section with arm straight and with the lighter section..well possible yoga therapy . My opnion only .. men where shorter back then and that set the standard. Grant.. I met Paul Casey as I lived in Seattle for a spell back then and he was my tutor at the Pratt centre for a short course..decent sort! John N.. spec on massy manual was a big suprise to me but I am more than satisfied to have realised through my own inexperience the true nature of the beast. Some photos of progress with foundation. All the best MichaelFound_Again - Blacksmith Photo GalleryFound_ - Blacksmith Photo Gallery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myloh67 Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 These photos where taken a while back. I still have yet to couple up the motor. We all get there one way or another. Jeremiah my father, in the photo a great help yet again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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