chemistry for scrapmongers

[MattBower]

This could also be entitled, "why you shouldn't believe steel charts and rumors, even from seemingly reliable sources."

I'm friendly with a guy who works in the lab at a steel mill in Ohio. He told me months ago that he'd be happy to run some samples of unknown steels for me. Last week I finally got around to sending him pieces of some mystery steels that I'd been wondering about for a while. Of course the nature of junkyard steel being what it is, you cannot validly generalize from any of these results. But I think some of you may find them interesting nonetheless. (I'm not posting all the results because some of them -- like some mystery bar stock that I bought at a bladesmith's estate auction -- are completely useless to anyone but me. [Turns out it's O1, like I suspected.])

Rail anchor ("clip") from a CSX rail bed___C: 0.51 | Mn: 0.80 | P: 0.01 | S: 0.03 | Si: 0.18 | Cu: 0.24 | Cr: 0.07 | Mo: 0.02 | Ni: 0.07 | Sn: 0.010 | V: 0.002 | Cb/Nb: 0.015
Bed frame angle iron*_________________C: 0.53 | Mn: 0.83 | P: 0.02 | S: 0.02 | Si: 0.19 | Cu: 0.01 | Cr: 0.02 | Mo: 0.005 | Ni: 0.01 | Sn: 0.006 | V: 0.002 | Cb/NB: 0.002
Demolition hammer bit **______________C: 0.42 | Mn: 0.70 | P: 0.005 | S: 0.02 | Si: 0.2 | Cu: 0.02 | Cr: 0.02 | Mo: 0.005 | Ni: 0.02 | Sn: 0.004 | V: 0.0 | Cb/NB: 0.002
Tire iron***_________________________C: 0.70 | Mn: 0.75 | P:0.01 | S: 0.01 | Si: 0.23 | Cu: 0.01 | Cr: 0.01 | Mo: 0.002 | Ni: 0.0 | Sn: 0.0 | V: 0.001 | Cb/Nb: 0.0

I can't tell you what machines he used for these analyses, though I'll ask. At the moment I can only tell you that he used two separate machines, that the results were consistent between the two, and that the results for the O1 bar stock were just about exactly what they should have been (within 0.02). That makes me suspect the rest are probably pretty accurate, too.

*After annealing overnight in a charcoal fire.
**I got these from a guy who sells and repairs demolition hammers (among other things). He claimed that the manfacturer's rep for the bits told him they were S5. (Since he gave them to me for the cost of postage, he had no real incentive to lie about that.) And that corresponds perfectly with the info you'll see on some of the scrap steel charts that float around. Well, guess what: this particular bit is nowhere close to S5! It's plain old 1040! This just reinforces my point about not putting much stock in those charts, or even in word of mouth from people who seem like they might know.
***He's not very confident of the tire iron results because the sample was smaller than it should have been.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

MattBower, Thank you for that information!
Coil spring is the only "junkyard steel" I normally use. I'd sure be interested to see what that checks out to be on those machines.

[BeaverDamForge]

Thanks, been wondering about rail anchors!

[jimbob]

does he charge you for this service..as I have some torsion bars from chevy trucks I'ed like to know whats in them ...

[MattBower]

jimbob,

No, he did it as a favor.

I anticipated before I posted these results that I might get some requests from other smiths wanting to have certain items analyzed. Perfectly understandable. But I haven't decided quite how to handle those sorts of requests. I want to help out, but I also don't want to wear out my welcome by asking too much. Let me think about that.

[jimbob]

thanks. I trying to find out what this stuff is made of ...my son brings it home from the auto scrap yard he works at.
I understand thanks again

Edited April 1, 2009 by jimbob

[ThomasPowers]

Sorry you've wondered I've posted this a bunch of times here already

"The current standard for rail anchors is 1040-1060 steel, depending upon manufacturer."

Much better than HC RR spikes that top out at .3 % C

[MattBower]

I think that's actually me you're quoting there, Thomas. At least the 1040(ish)-1060(ish) range is what I was given when I contacted one of the two major American rail anchor manufacturers (UNIT) a while back, and I posted it on AnvilFire and perhaps elsewhere. (I think I remember you saying something about how it'd be nice to be able to identify the ones that are 1060ish.)

But getting hard numbers on chemistry always beats taking someone else's word. I was told those hammer bits were S5 . . .

[BeaverDamForge]

I had seen that, Thomas, and thanks for posting it!

I've also been told by a fairly experienced smith that they seem to be tougher than a straight carbon steel, so the analysis is nice to have (not that I'm an expert on steel analysis). :)

[ThomasPowers]

Yup Matt was the source as I took his talking to the manufacturer as good enough for my RR steel composition file. I don't trust "scrap" sources as many of them rely on the same "Junkyard steel lists" I *KNOW* are often wrong.

[jimbob]

maybe this thread could start to put together a new list of junk yard steel...the one on the net is quite old and leaves a lot to be desired

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

jimbob,

No, he did it as a favor.

I anticipated before I posted these results that I might get some requests from other smiths wanting to have certain items analyzed. Perfectly understandable. But I haven't decided quite how to handle those sorts of requests. I want to help out, but I also don't want to wear out my welcome by asking too much. Let me think about that.

MattBower, I get most of my steel that I use from a suspension shop that uses 4140, so I know what it is. I've been getting it for free for 3 years now. I give the owners something that I've made every so often because I appreciate the thousands of pounds of material I've hauled away from there. If you send me a private message with your info, I'll make something to send to you to exchange for their services. I've had different coil springs respond differently under the hammer and would like to know what exactly it is.