K. Bryan Morgan

Thomas, temper coloring them would be a good effect.  I can see how that would look good.  But he did specify black iron to me.  So I'll get them hot texture them some and let them cool.  I think just before they get cool enough to touch, wipe them down with beeswax.  Since this is food gear we decided on that.

Francis, I got some of the stamped ones.  I feel that the forged ones would be way to heavy and I can't weld a lick.

Oh wow Vaughn, that's a great idea.  I'm going to the Alaska Steel here in a couple of minutes and will be getting more flat bar.  I mucked up the first attempts and used up all my stock.  That's ok though I can use it for something else later.  I think I've changed the design like five times.  I spoke to Robert, the gentleman I'm making this for, and the date has been set back to another two weeks.  I am glad for the extra time. 

So the new elements will arrive in a few days.  In the mean time I will be working on the rack.  As soon as I get some pieces put together I'll start posting pictures.  I'll have something in the next couple of days.

Ok then I'll look them up and see how fast they can get them here.  I can always rivet them on as well.  Small copper rivets.  I wonder if they have grapes with a 90 deg bend in them?

No they don't but that's alright.  I found something that will work fine.

Well I've come to a decision.  The 14 ga. is just to thick for what I'm doing.  I'm heading to the local sheet metal shop, that's been here since 1914, http://www.newsminer.com/business/wilbur-bros-sheet-metal-turns/article_1345a8a4-0fe2-11e4-94b3-001a4bcf6878.html, to get some thinner gauge metal.  I'm thinking 20 ga.?  I included the link its an interesting story for a family business that's been a part of this town for 100 years.

So, my slight experience with sheet metal gave me some bad data and I found that the 14 ga. was just had more thickness than I had originally thought.  So, no biggie.  I can use it for something else another time.  Maybe a Viking helmet some day?  Or something.  LOL. 

A little bit on design.  I'm making two legs per side with a slight flare at the bottoms with a curve and a couple of fuller lined going up the curved section of the foot.  The grapes will be bent at a 90 deg. angle and attached to the corner with a grape vine and leaves curling down the two legs.  There will be two rows of bar stock one above the other.  One will hold the chafing dish and one row for the framing for the tray that will hold the burners.  So, I've settled on design and now I need to measure the existing example for size and get to cutting and drilling and riveting.  Woo hoo.. I'm excited to getting started with the actual build.  I have a feeling the decorative elements will be what take me the longest.  Woot.  Here I go!

Yes I have a Sawsall and will be using that to cut the metal with.  But I think I will stick with the 14 ga.  I'm having fun so why not.  I got some of it cut up today.  But life intervened and I've had to step away from the shop for the rest of the day.  Things to do places to go ect.  But I'll jump back on it tomorrow. 

I will put together one of the grills after this to show you what I've been making.  It's pretty simple really.  1" angle iron frame and riveted 3/4 inch flat to that with expanded metal sheet sandwiched between.  I like the 3/4" expanded metal.  Its less expensive.  Your buying less steel than the smaller opening stuff and not much will fall through it.  for the legs I just make a U at both ends with 3/4" angle and bolt them on. They fold inside the 1" angle and pretty much disappear.  I used up a whole 4x8 foot sheet of the expanded metal over the summer.  I need to get more.  I have to buy the whole sheet though. 

oh dear... well now I have some 14 ga to do ... stuff with. 

Ohhh... very good idea. Thank you for that.  I was going to do texturing for the stems and runners for the grape vines.  But I didn't think of that.

Ok I got the materials to get the job done.  I went over to a friends machine shop and talked to him about a rivet set for the rivets.  I've decided to use 1/4 hot rolled for the rivets, flat on the inside and domed on the outside.  I'm going to make an oval punch and use that to make a negative into a piece of mild steel plate I have, then raise the grapes out of the 14 ga.  There will be a small bunch of grapes in each corner of the frame.  And the leaves of course.  So, tooling tomorrow.  Then I need to cut my pieces.  Then drill for rivets.. then then then...

Wow, lots of great ideas here.  I read the grape leave tutorial that Brian Brazeal showed on this thread.   and I will be using some of those techniques.  However I won't be making them out of copper.  I've decided on 14 ga. steel.  Now how to cut that?  Most likely a grinder and hack saw.  They will be small.  As will the grape bunches.  these will live in the corners of the legs of the chafing dish.  Remember, this is a decorative element for a small item.  Large bunch of grapes, to my mind would be out of scale.  So small elements.  Small leaves.  I would think no more than 2 inches across for the leaves, so there will be 2-3 in each corner of the rack and one bunch of leaves.  Held on by rivets, that may or may not be copper.  Uhggg....

Ok Frosty, I know we need to talk.  Any help you could provide, and that actually goes to everyone, would and will be greatly appreciated. 

Jeremy, that does sound like a good idea.  I just don't know.  I have never welded anything in my life other than a few good forge welds.  Its a big step with no training.

Thomas, this is going to drive you crazy.  I'm doing this on spec.  I have no idea what the price will be yet.  And neither does he.  I have a figure in mind but I'm hesitant to put it out there. 

Beammeupscotty, that's just lovely.  and actually pretty close to what I had in mind for the grape bunches.  It gives me a great idea and I only need to make one tool to do that. I had planned on rivets.  And its what my friend wants.

Ok so here I go to the steel store to buy steel.  Woot!

Oh ya one more thing.  Yes I will take pictures.

Tonight I went out to get some pizza for me and the missus.  I stopped at one of our favorite local eateries where I know the owner and people working there.  He comes out of the kitchen and says, "Oh, there you are, we need to talk."  Now the last time someone said that to me I was in big trouble.  But I know I couldn't be this time, I thought. 

A little background here might be in order.  I have had, with out a doubt, the busiest summer blacksmithing I've ever had.  I made a mistake.  I made something someone really liked.  A camp tripod.  Next thing I knew I was making a bunch of them.  Then I made someone else a cowboy cook set.  Next thing I knew I was making a bunch of them.  THEN, I made someone a campfire grate out of expanded metal with folding legs.  Next think I knew I was making a bunch of them.  I made extras of everything just in case.  I can't keep the durn things in stock.  Now I'm a hobby guy.  I just do it for the fun of it.  I never wanted this to be a business.  On the other hand I'm having a dandy time doing it.  Ok back to the story.

So I go into the back room with him into the office and he shows me a chafing dish and rack that's used to hold them.  He wants a chafing dish rack with grape leaves and a bunch of grapes in each corner.  Ok I understand, it will be hefty, one 1" x 1/8" flat bar.  Square riveted corners.  Legs of course.  Two on each side. And a small tray to set the burners on.  All of this seems easy enough.  I've not done anything like this before but I'll sure getter done. 

I think I have the basic layout figured out.  I could use help with the artistic elements.  I've never done grape leaves and grapes.  There are some things I can't do.  I can't weld.  I don't have a welder.  But I rivet pretty well.  I could even do copper rivets.  I had thought that would be a nice accent color against the black iron. 

I've read the forum and I believe the easiest way for me to do the leaves is to use 14 ga.  mild steel for the leaves.  And I'm thinking about raising or dishing or chasing what ever the term is the grape bunches.  This needs to look good but not be so heavy it can't be lifted by a normal person.  I have seen the welded grape bunches and using forged grapes or ball bearings welded into bunches may be somewhat on the heavy side. 

I suppose I should also mention this is for Festival Fairbanks, in two weeks.  Erp.

:blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

Man that is beautiful.  I really love your work.

If I remember right that's a French design.  They've been making anvils of that pattern that for hundreds of years.  So, it can't be all bad.

Translation:

Good day, I would like to present an anvil que manufacture :

Made them steel SAE 1045 - Fused

50HRC hardness

Weight 34 kg

I hope you enjoy

http://sourceforge.net/directory/os:windows/freshness:recently-updated/?q=cad

Here is a list of free open source cad programs, many of them professional quality.  And many of them just as good as AutoCAD.

Here is a good how to, right here on IFI.  :lol:

Hi Mark, for what it is it isn't a terrible deal.  I was getting this same coal from Alaska Feed for $34.99 a bag.  But since that sold out the owner isn't willing to get more unless there's a prepaid order at $56.50 a bag.  Same amount.  So for me that's a deal breaker. 

Jeff, ok that sounds fine so between you and me that's about half of the order.  Once I get enough people to commit I'll gather the money and get it done.

Sorry Mark.

Ok, just got off the phone with L Brand Coke and I can get the pallet delivered to my house for $2045, that's for a ton and a quarter.  (2250 lbs)  in 50 lb bags of Pocohantas 3 blacksmithing coal.  That price would be good for the next month.  So that's how long I have to gather together the money from smiths here in the Golden Valley.  If anyone is interested in getting some of this let me know and we will gather the money and make it happen.

Yes, That's right Mark.  It was Wishbone Hill that he was talking about.  Thank you, I couldn't remember the name of the exact site.

I spoke to someone from the Usibelli mine today.  Usibelli has been getting a good amount of interest in bituminous coal and are aware of the blacksmithing community in Alaska. They indeed have a lease near Palmer that they are going to open up as soon as they get the mining permits taken care of.  All the other permissions are done and its just this last hurdle before they begin operations.  It is bituminous coal, about 12,000 btu and does coke up.  So that's great news.  But will be in a year or two before we can see any results from it.  In the mean time we will continue the hunt.

I also talked to Jeff Coe from Fox and we are still trying to get people together to make an order and will keep working on it. 

So, good news for the future.  I will keep my eyes peeled for any news of Usibelli opening up the new seam and when they do.  I will get as much as I can afford.  Which for local prices for coal could end up in the several ton range.  Heck, if its anywhere near the Healy mine prices $500 would be around 4 tons.  At those prices I may just get in to the business of selling coal for blacksmiths.  Something to consider for the future.

Controlled hand forging PDF files from the ABANA.  Its a course of study with step by step instructions for each operation.  26 comprehensive lessons that culminate with the making of a grill.   I have found it very helpful.

http://www.abana.org/resources/chf.shtml

and then I read that you already had these.  Big Ole DERP.

Thanks George, that's the same coal.  Its Pocahontas.  The same stuff Mountain Brook Forge is selling.  Anyway I'll figure out if we have enough interest, if not, I guess I buy a 100# propane tank.

Yes coke does go further.  I just got off the phone with the L Brand Coke gentleman and we had a nice talk.  Turns out he's the same person that David from Alaska Feed was talking to.  I just didn't know it.  And he's not in Oregon he's in Washington.  Neither here nor there.  The problem is of course shipping and minimums.  If David can get a pallet, his shipping cost is fixed.  It goes in the container and weight isn't an issue.

For the smiths here in the Golden Valley that want to get coal or coke, the issue is having to prepay.  David told me he won't do an order unless he has the money in hand.  I can understand that.  But I can't pay for an entire shipment on my own.  I would be more than willing to be the front and get it done.  But I would need others to pony up.  In advance and be willing to wait until it arrives.  So if any other smiths in the interior want to do this let me know and we will get together and make it happen.  But interest needs to be shown or this is a dead deal.

On the L Brand Coke, there is a 20 bag (1000 lbs) minimum order.  I have a call in to their Washington contact and am waiting a reply.  I don't know.  This sounds expensive to. 

Hey Frosty, ya we have plenty of hard and soft woods here.  Tons of Birch and tons of Spruce.  Spruce has about 1/3 less btu than Birch.  Birch is a hardwood, the stock of my Mosin/Nagant rifle is Birch.  I'm not sure that spruce is a hardwood however.  I googled the btu chart and for the varieties we have here that's what it shows.  So, I could get a chord of Birch and charcoal it.  It would take forever and would be a mess but it could be done.  I just need to set up a retort system.  I really would rather use coal.  IF it comes down to it I'll just go straight propane and be done with it.  But I love using coal.  Its half the fun of forging for me.

Lyle, I couldn't get that link to function.  But, when I googled it, it popped right up and I'm emailing them right after this.  I'll see what they will charge to ship up say 500 lbs.  Worse comes to worse.  I'll have them USPS 50 lb boxes.  IF its under 70 lbs it ships with USPS.  Anyway one at a time couldn't be terrible on the pocket.  I'll contact them and find out.

HWooldridge, It is pretty country up here.  I love it.  The idea about a side draft is a good one.  I haven't used any of the Usibelli coal in my break drum forge so I don't know how it will act.  I plan on getting a bag of it from a local coal supplier for home heating units.  Its about $6.00 a bag for 100#.  So may as well for that price. 

I'll keep plugging away.  See what I can find out.  Worse comes to worse I'll just convert to propane.  I have a propane forge.  I just don't like it.  Its a stupid reason.  I just love the romance of coal.  The way you have to manipulate the fire.  How you have to tend it and care for it.  With propane you just turn it on and light it.  Done.  There is no challenge.  I know its not a good reason or a practical one, but its mine.