bajajoaquin

You may be right, that experience will help take advantage of the Hofi hammer, but I don't think there's anything about it that would make it less useful for a beginner. Since his design theory is to take advantage of a hammer that is balanced around multiple axis, it may be somewhat easier for a beginner, I don't know. But a Hofi hammer will be just fine, as will a "standard" cross peen, straight peen, or even a ball peen. My understanding is that ball peens are more common in England for general forging than they are in the US, but that may be mistaken. In any case, the thing you're looking for is a 2 to 2-1/2 pound forging hammer. When is your class? If it's several weeks away, why don't you go to your local swap meet for a few weeks and see what you find? I found my first forging hammer for less than $5 at my local one. It was three pounds, and I've since gotten others (mostly lighter), but I still use it. If your class starts up soon, and you're not sure you can find one at a swap meet, go ahead and buy the Czech hammer, or go to your local hardware store and buy a 2lb ball peen. If you get the Czech hammer, as you get better, and want a harder face, I presume you can learn to harden and temper using that hammer. If you get the ball peen, you'll still use it later for dishing, welding, and all sorts of other things. After you have completed your class, you'll be in one of two places: continuing blacksmithing, in which case you're going to have lots of hammers in short order, or uninterested, in which case you'll be glad you didn't spend a whole bunch of money on something you can't use to pull bent nails out of the wall.

My point exactly, sorry if it came across otherwise. I just meant that on a cost-for-energy comparison (the OP's question), it doesn't make sense. But if you can spend your time forging, rather than tending a forge (or setting up, or quenching, or whatever), then the really expensive part of the equation - your labor - really starts to make some sense. I'm thinking in particular of the discussions on this board regarding Larry and the hammer bits. He needed to maximize his time working, not waiting. And, of course, for me, it's a completely different direction, but the same reason. It makes no sense for me to save $50/month on fuel, compared to the price of buying an induction setup. However, if I can come into my shop, flip on a switch, and forge for a half hour before dinner, well, that's time I get forging rather than lighting a fire. So it becomes a difference between setting aside a big block of time, and getting to do more and more regularly. Like I said, I'm half way to my savings goal! I'm hoping to be purchasing middle of next year.

So, assuming that your power and propane prices are similar to ours, the running costs on an induction forge are about 1/8 of propane. As a hobbyist, I'm more likely to be using $50-$70 worth of propane (or coal) per month, so I'd expect a savings of $40-$60 each month. On an energy cost basis, that makes for an impossible payoff period for a smaller induction forge. Not that I'm considering one of your forges because they're cost-effective, mind you. For me, it makes the idea of a forge in a dense, urban environment much more attractive. I'm about half way there on my savings! Even at the rates you're using it, I suspect that the main component of cost efficiencies is not the materials, but the time. Having seen your videos, I know that you set up a system so that you are almost constantly forging, rather than tending the forge during a heating process. When you say, "most popular" in another post, are you talking about the 15kW, or the next up the range?

From memory (Anvils in America is at home), Hill made anvils through about 1850. Can you post a picture? They tended to be an older-style, with a similar look to a Mousehole. They didn't seem to change over style to match the Peter Wright look that came to be so clearly identified as the "London" pattern. Is this correct? If it has a pritchel, according to Postman, it should date between 1830 and 1850. Of course, if they just didn't ship to the US after about 1850, it may be newer. YMMV. I picked up a Hill about a year or so ago. 186 pounds. I like it.

I've thought of something like that. I keep threatening for Halloween to grow out my hair, and shave it in the middle, then do a comb-over.

With the angle in the first pic, it's tough to tell the length:height ratio. But I'm going to guess it's about 16" high. Why? Because I read the pictures as about 7X13.25. If the weight is "200" then it would have to be 7" high to weigh 200lb, and that doesn't look right. But if it's 200kg, that would be 440 lbs. Not counting the feet, 7X13.25X16 is 420 lbs. Just a guess.

I'm clean-shaven, but it's mostly because I'm in a white-collar job, and I feel that it's part of the uniform, like the slacks and starched shirt. My wife likes me scruffy, though, so I don't shave on the weekends or vacations. After a week or two I usually shave, because it gets too itchy. If I could just keep it at the 2-3 day growth mark without maintenance, I'd totally keep it at that length.

can you post up a pic? The ad has been deleted.

Is that related to the limerick?

You wouldn't be in the UK if you got the internship, now would you? ;)

If you attach a wooden stump firmly to the ground, is it going to work as well as an anvil that is laying unattached? So there is something at work that is as important as (and perhaps more than) fixing something to the ground. But if we have too many variables, there's no way to isolate the effects of different ones. So going back to the limited hypothetical, perhaps it needs to be changed, and established as valid, first. would a 100lb block of forklift tine be a better performing anvil than a 100lb block of mild steel in the same shape, with the same attachment?

Do they still need a woodworking badge? You could build a box bellows.

When we were talking about the relationship between mas and efficiency, Maddog gave us this equation: "The equation I used was %Energy loss = 4r /(1+r)^2 x 100 where r is the anvil to hammer mass ratio." From there, I think we were able to get an understanding of the improvement in performance as anvil mass went up. What I was hoping to do here was work out the next order of sophistication, the relationship between mass and hardness. If we do a little thought experiment, we can see that a 5lb block of tool steel will make a much better anvil than 1,000 lb of foam rubber. That's a silly example to show that we can presume hardness is part of the function, not just mass. Because of the huge difference in material properties between those two, when I gave my "for instance" above, I tried to limit it to some more similar materials, so as to help minimize the variables. Perhaps Thomas has had a chance to speak with someone at the university...?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I have a "real" anvil. A nice 185-lb wrought. I was hoping to understand the relationship between hardness and mass as it related to work efficiency. It was a "why" question rather than a "what."

But you did just remind me that I haven't been getting my CBA newsletter recently. Hmmm. Thomas, that's an interesting comment. I've read your comment about tine when people mentioned a tool steel face before, but I always associated it as much with the alloy as the availability. Interesting. I didn't read the Wiki article carefully, but in scanning, it appears that we're looking at a combination of elasticity and rigidity, which provides "rebound hardness." A plastic deformation would absorb the energy of the blow, and a non-rigid, elastic deformation would not transfer energy to the work piece. There's something else going on, with the way different materials tend to absorb or transmit shock or harshness. I know I'm not using the right terms, but I don't know what the right ones are. You know how an aluminum framed bicycle can feel very stiff and precise, but a little "dead" compared to a steel one? So I'm still going to go and see if I can get this 3,000 lb of steel block (two 1k and two 500lb) for a deal, because... why not? But I'd like to understand the best way to use it, and why.

I'm hoping that someone with some knowledge of materials and math will help me out here. When we discussed "monster anvils," someone brought to the table a rough calculation of the effect of anvil mass on striking efficiency. When talking about making an anvil, we frequently talk about how different grades of steel have less rebound than a commercially-made anvil. For example, any time someone talks about buying a chunk of mild steel, Thomas comes in and says, "what about a forklift tine?" So at what point would a lighter piece of "better" material be less effective than a heavier piece of "worse" material? We can use mild steel and forklift tines if we want to limit the hypothetical. I ask for two reasons: 1. I'm curious, and I like to know how things work. 2. I'm being sorely tempted by a couple blocks of mild steel: 500lb and 1000lb that can be had for considerably less than $100 and $200, respectively. For the smaller one, I'm thinking big striking anvil. For the larger one, I'm thinking junkyard hammer base. Anyone have the equations I can put into a spreadsheet, and see where the curves cross?

Power: I could run a 60-amp sub-panel without doing any other upgrades to my house service. Since my current needs don't exceed 30 amps, I figured that was enough room to grow for a while. Basically it came down to cost. Forge layout: Yes, the smithy will be outside, and will be pretty simple: a forge, an anvil, and a post vise, with some very simple tool racks. I live in an urban area, and I don't want to leave any tools outside that could easily walk off, so they will be locked up every day in my work area. Stock Storage: I'm unlikely to get to store stock outside. That probably limits me to 10-footers (or as in a recent daily tip from I Forge Iron, 8-footers and 12-footers). I had planned on fabbing some racks to hold the stock horizontally against a wall. 220V-outlet: I've had the work done already. I have a 100-foot, 50-amp power cord, so I can move my welder around pretty easily. Thanks for the feedback. It sounds like there aren't any general rules of thumb that I'm missing. I love the ideas about mocking up the space. I played the "paper dolls" game when I laid out my previous space, and I'm trying to talk my wife into doing the cardboard box trick on our house layout!. If anyone has any more comments, keep 'em coming. I appreciate it.

And, in case Grant reads this, please note that I specifically had the electrician run 60A into the shop so that I could save up to buy a 15kW induction forge!

My wife and I just bought a new house, and one of the things it has is sufficient garage space to give one to me as a dedicated work shop. Since I'm just moving in, and it's about twice the size of my old space, my tools have plenty of room so far. I'm a hobbyist who got interested in blacksmithing when I taught myself to weld a few years back. I'm not planning on having a commercially-viable space, but I would like to build some architectural pieces for my house, and build some motorcycle chassis. I was hoping I could get some ideas on best layout, considerations for usage, guidelines or thoughts on how much space certain things should get, etc. I've put together a really cruddy MS Paint picture, showing the general layout (not to scale! ) with doors and electrical. My forge and anvil will go outside the 36" door, on the patio area. Other tools and equipment: 20" Floor-standing drill press 4X6 HF bandsaw Atlas bench-top mill 180-amp MIG welder Bench grinder Rolling tool chest Work bench 30X84 Work bench 36X48 Shelving unit 24X48 I was thinking that I'd put the power equipment along the left-hand wall, and my tool chest, shelving unit, and work benches along the right hand side. I have to build a material rack for steel stock that I'd also put along the right hand side. I'd also like to add a small lathe (like a 12X36) some time in the next year, so I'll want to plan for that. Any layout or workflow considerations that I should be making? Any general ideas on what works and what doesn't? Thanks!

Some abrasives, yes. Wire wheels and brushes. They can get most of the scale off, but the color is still closer to black than that nice satiny slivery stainless color. Also, part of the issue is spots of rust on the items, as well as fire scale. I'm hoping to remove both at the same time. My citric acid came in a plastic bag. I haven't tracked down a suitable container yet, so I'm avoiding opening the bag for my scale removal test until I can store it. I admit that I'm not trying too hard to look, but having bought two fixer houses recently, I'm kind of full up on projects right now. I do have motivation to get it done, though: I am putting in a new kitchen soon, and I want to fab the hardware out of stainless.

That's interesting. I know you say you are unsure about the temperature, but what kind of ballpark are we talking about? If it's similar to normalizing, It would be below critical, right? I'd assume that we're also talking about something over a black heat. Think that's in the ballpark? I'll still start with the pickle. As I mentioned in another thread, I just bought a project of a house, so I don't have a forge outside of the one at CBA Vista for a while. It will be easier to pickle at home than heat to anything over 500 or 600 degrees.

I didn't know about the differences in acids with regards to the chromium oxide prior to reading these threads. However, I have been doing some small-scale forging with stainless, and have been a little disappointed in my inability to brush it to a lustrous finish. I'm not sure how accurate my understanding is, but I gathered that I needed to treat the steel with a certain type of acid after forging to restore it's surface qualities. So, I'm not sure how Phil's statement fits in to my understanding, but I'm hoping that, in addition to the effects he described above, that I'll be able to brush it to a nice finish after treatment. My wife just brought me a 500ml graduated cylinder. It's nice, because I can fill it to an easily-known quantity, and then add in my citric acid (measured by weight on a kitchen scale) to get to my 10% solution. It's tall, so I can completely cover some of the items I've forged, like a cocktail spoon, without having a huge volume of acid solution. I won't heat the solution, as I've seen in recipes, but I will be able to control my solution pretty well. First test will be a stainless key fob I made recently; I'll drop it in, and check out the results. Expect to see another thread, with some background, details, observations, and hypotheses.

Heh, heh. Water bird. Washing machine. Get it?

I saw it on Amazon, but the descriptions on the food-supplement items wasn't very clear about whether it was just plain citric acid. The laboratory-grade items were very specific, but wanted like $8 for shipping a pound. I suppose I'll go and buy a five-pound bag of the stuff from the food section. Thanks. And teenylittlemetalguy, don't you know that in San Diego every store is a health food store? That's how we roll.

You're right! And in San Diego, think of all the limes being sold for fish tacos! How much of that is a joke, and how much are you being serious? I was figuring on pure citric acid so that I wouldn't have all the other junk that comes with citrus juices.