jake pogrebinsky

Yep,it's incredible what people can do,when they pursue any one thing intensely,like racing their axes and saws! And,good for you,Clay,i know what you mean,i've put in a couple of seasons with the US Forest Service trail crews,it's one of the last remaining islands of bushcraft in society.Great thing to do(for the young,anyway:),great people,and,of course,incredible country! Double-bits can be very useful,some people prefer them.There used to be this cute little 2+ lb one popular around here,but they're getting hard to find.They were handy for thick,sturdy spruce branches,seemed like they moved faster,somehow,felt at least very fast and light. Using an axe as a weapon seems really awkward,have a hardest time picturing it.I've chopped up many a large carcass for dog feed,the axe sticks in any number of most annoying ways,don't want to get graphic here,but it's very inconvenient. Occasionally it happens that a man has to kill an agressive moose over a trail dispute,often a person out in the winter has nothing but his axe.In such a situation it's vastly more effective to use the poll,of course,and try to deliver a blow like that used in a slaugterhouse.Just in general,using a sharp,short,heavy blade to kill something is weird,from the homesteader's perspective. Maybe an axe was such a powerful symbol because it was a primary tool of land clearing.Obviously,if you were secure enough to put down roots and start clearing fields,you had an ability to defend yourself.You were probably very violent and agressive in your recent past,and had many slaves to use those axes for you,or many tributory tribes,but in any case,an axe was often used as a status object. Later,with the further devepopment of sedentary agriculture and economy of produced goods,the craftsman wielding an axe was also the source of much that brought wealth and power:Building of fortifications,boats,more comfortable and elaborate housing,and,since these craftsmen were also slaves( ),and obviously you,as a feudal lord,had the capacity to feed and defend them,it was also a positive reflection on your status!(Plus,when the time for conscription came,you saved money on arming them-they already had tool-boxes full of sharp,dangerous(looking)things!). So,an axe was a good thing in all ways! :)

Usual enemy of chimney parts is "creosote",folk term for all the combustion byproducts.Acidity is what did your pipe in,in this case,i'd guess made worse by sulfur in the coal. 24ga.is paper thin(terrible what they sell,nowadays),plus,it probably had a sticker on it saying that it's not to be used as chimney. Plain steel,no zink,may do better.I hope so,anyway,as the composition of your coal is not that easy to change. Best of luck,hope that un-galv.pipe works better.

That was a very good idea,Clay,tolook to the racing scene for some info.Here's a slightly more explicit view:http://www.osborneaxes.com.au/conventional_grinds.html Unfortunately,i'm at a loss as to how to actually employ any of that.I have been TRYING to think along these lines,of late,but no results whatsoever.Not a very scientific brain,that one of mine.But i kinda keep it in the back of my mind somewhere,maybe it'll sprout one day...

Aw,Clay,that's really cool stuff,will look into that link(it'll take me the usual 45 min.or so). Well,just how skinny and sharp DO you like it?(Feed back from users like you is absolutely crucial part of it all,so thank you very much for all the info). Something in me resists going further than 10-12 deg.for the blade angle,with the 22-25 deg.final bevel.How does that sound to you,for chopping? Bryan,i'm sorry that i comunicate so haphazardly.Your news of getting those breaker bits,+ that info from Thomas,make you a rich man!All those alloys mentioned are fantastic stuff,and with a little experimentation you can learn to HT them,then-the sky's the limit! I'm a total dip in general-just found a chunk of 52100 that was supposed to've been in the box on the way to you There's another chunk in there,though,marked on ends,but... If we can figure out exactly what you'd like to build,then while you work up your drift i'll throw together some more junk for you,to suit your project.Especially if you will end up welding in a bit i'd like you not to have to mess with Cr based stuff(i've bladed stuff with 52100,but it took some frustrating repetition,for the CrO to burn off,or sumping ). I'm done for the moment with my reverse-engineering of M.A.'s axe,and seems like i've left meself none too much for the blade.So,if i could justify forging it skinnier i'b be pleased to do just that. I've screwed around most clumsily to where i've lost 1/5th or so to scale,and am now at about 770 g.,pretty light already,for a camp axe. BUT,all in all,that was a most glorious exercise,i just love it!My most sincere thanks to Michael Artemiev for inspiration,and to Don Hanson,an exellent knife-maker,who managed to supply me with this,essentially custom-blended alloy(for the price about half less a pound then the potatoes at my store here-incredible...). I really like that style eye,even more now that i've a reasonable facsimile.Will see how it'll handle up. Would love to convert it to a compression fit...Darn it,i need to quit even thinking that,and start back on my kitsch :wacko:

Sorry,Bryan,missed your mssg. Again,it all comes back to settling on a specific direction. 1"x2" should have enough there to form many eye shapes,your usual 2 lb-er has somewhat less in the eye. But there are NO generalities in this biz.We need to be talking specifics if yoyu'll be buying steel,using fuel,et c.,to set up.

Bryan,just to illustrate a point,here's another russian-type axe,the Zlatoust pattern,for general work. It's poll-less,and so lends itself well to the wrapped method. The steel bit is thick,and extends clear to the eye.THAT is what the drift bears against in drifting. Therefore,the front of the drift must have a good flat bearing surface,and,as in many similar designs,the wrapping is done over the drift,to set your parameters right away,as it won't allow you to really forge the eye past a certain point. (That trial for me was a "failure in skill/salvageble product" type.Very humbling,as it exposes all of one's weaknesses.I've many similar experiences,as i never stick to any one thing....). Can't find the photo of some originals,they're an excellent tool,made by a skilled hand.

Yep,cool axes.Same deal:TALL,slender-ish eye,for a solid connection with the haft.Quite a difficult thing to achieve. To slit something always upsets it.Yesterday i started out with 2 1/4" height,ended up with 2" after slitting,and now,after much drifting and other torture,going under 2",by a quarter or more. Slitting an axe eye is not easy.To do it in a simplistic way,with the one size slitter,would take MUCH force.It's best to use a narrow slitter,and go back and forth along the long slit. I've tried that out this time,and like it,lots.Another advantage is that the slitter is just a piece of scrap off the floor,thin and narrow,leaf-spring would probably work good,and can be easily made and re-made. The sides of the eye constantly are reduced in the process.I started with 1/2" thickness(too much)but am now down to 5/16". Those photos of a pre-forged blank that i posted yesterday are taken on that angle for a reason:They show the declensions that form when the bulge of an eye is formed.Front and back.Those are fish-mouths in effect,and need to be watched very carefully,as they'll get out of hand rapidly and become inaccessible. M.A. uses the rear one as part of design,very clever.

Thomas is,as usual,very right,thanks,and thanks to Grant,too,for all sorts of most helpful data. (As a proof,will post a shot of an adze-head from breaker bit,that gloriously exploded in a water quench!). Clay,thanks,i'll look at that link forthwith. What you say makes a lot of sense.The thing is,(since we're getting into the nuts and bolts of axes),that the blade angle(looking from the top)and therefore thickness,differ greatly on chopping and carving/hewing axes. To chop means to apply pressure on the chip sideways,lots of pressure,THAT's why the chips fly,not from the swing itself. The hewing axe would go too deep,get stuck,and will need to be dislodged,using unnecessary force.It's job is to separate a chip cleanly,slicing it off. I'd love to see some of your favorite axes,Clay,especially the close-ups of blade edges/angles. Yes,Beth,we're almost exactly half a world apart(i'm a few hundred miles away from the anti-Greenwich,the international dateline,so i'm still in yesterday,too). Axes were always a powerful symbol.But far from strictly male,in most cultures.Kazakhs use it as some important marriage-rite object,and axes went into so many graves that the archaeologists are totally confused!Status-axes were very common,lacking any function but that.In Ukraine,it's a powerful symbol of non-agressive but stout defence of home/land,and i can go on and on(and do ).An axe takes vastly more brain than brawn to wield(as well as to forge ),it's a martial art for sure! Bryan,there's probably no need to make a drift out of something that hard,unless you plan on repeating the design much.Here're some shots of that adze,it's typical slit/drifted sq.

Why,Beth!I didn't want to scare you,i thought you could use some more critters for inspiration!They are cool,the voles,i should hunt down a Yellow-cheeked kind for you,they're much bigger,and never come into the house,for some reason. And i'm not sure about wimmins and axes-aren't a few axe-makers working for Gransfors Bruks women?I think at least 3 or 4 are. The religion in Russia was deep underground,and kids like me were kept out of it for obvious reasons.People that believed,and practiced,were harassed and slighted in every possible way,and kept their faith very private.In a way it was almost better than it is today,as the religion quickly became a fad,the church allied with the corrupt rulers,and the like.This opinion is not mine,but comes from a nun that used to do missionary work there before the Fall.I don't know much about any of that,but the Mitropolite(the head of Eastern Catholics)Cyril did proclaim officially that the earthquake in Haiti was sent them for their sins(and his alledged lifelong association with the secret police was always widely known),so,it's probably never a good time to be an earnest believer,and always carries with it some heavy burdens. Ok,i'm hot on M.A.'s trail.I did run out of propane(thank god,as it's past midnight,and now i can throw the propane forge and tank out of there,i can no longer afford it,and need the room!),but came up with a shape that has all the necessary characteristics!!! (Of course,it'll look like a xxxx to anyone in their right mind). Learned much about the poll,figured out where many curves and angles come from(all are natural consequences of forging that shape),got to even forge a timy bit on those cute front corners of the eye,on a quickly dying heat!!!(heretofore an inaccessible mystery),and even started naturally developing that forward stance of an eye relative the profile...It felt good,i've done my job. I'll post a couple of photos,for what it's worth,but will be happy to take it up further tomorrow. Bryan,i now know quite a bit about this particular style...Will be more than happy to tell you all i've learned,but the choice is all yours,let me know what you'd like to see happen. The last shot is of all the "drifts" that i've used,none of them right,or final.(The slitter is on the left,that's also crucially important,will explain later). The thing is that it's all a dynamic process,and there's no the one slitter or,especially,the one drift,there's usually several,staged very strategically,corresponding to other parts of the sequence(of our genetic code,Michael:)).

Man,i thought i just had some dribbles of propane,but the silly thing keeps on running... Bryan,you know that i'd never want to be down on someone for being satisfied with little...I don't mean it that way. It's just we're in it for the forging,right?Not for the finished(low grade)object.I mean,a better axe than i could EVER make costs $14,with a handle... I think that i just MAY've established the main points of M.A.'s technique.It's PH,of course,for most of it. My tiny 25lb is groaning under that W-2. M.A.'s axes are all 52100,by the way. We'll see...

Bryan,of course you're not ready for that.Nor am i ready for that.The point is,though,that both of us know enough to know where we WANT to go,what needs to happen,eventually. I've NO idea how Artemiev does it,but i've been trying out things here and there,and it's fantastic,boss!I just beg you not to settle for some railroad spike axe!And we'll get there,some day,and have a blast on the way! I'm using propane now,and it takes a spell to come up to heat,so taking a breather at the comp meanwhile. M.Artemiev is so cool because:That poll,it's just ".right"Also very long,up/down,that's what takes all the pressure in work(not the sides. The walls of eye-so thin,man,it's also right,for balance and all else. That angle of eye forward-that's unique nowadays-used to be common.That REALLY helps in chopping work. The eye is wide,lots of wood in there(sturdy handle)but does not destroy the slick profile.Notealso how the axe tapers from eye forward-wedge-like,no abrupt dip(a ridiculous feature in many axes,especially wrapped). There's TONS more valuable info implicit within,but,THE most important thing is: His axes are ALL scaled.He reaches that shape by forging.Now,ain't that just cat's meow?!An that's why i consider him one of the VERY best.

This quite,unassuming fellow here makes some of the best axes in our time,in my opinion.You can look at a few here(sorry about it being in russian,but it's the pictures that are important).http://knifelife.ru/articles_MA.htm I'm doing an experiment along the lines of exploring his direction in this all.I'll screw up this one,and the next,AND the next...Et c. But,i'm learning so much,man....

Bryan,my forge is about 6 feet away,so i'm kind of writing while forging,sorta. The drift is more important for some axe types than others(on this one here i don't even have a drift-i'll make one once i fugure out what i've got going here). On wrapped axes the drift becomes more critical,as you can't drift against youir weld,but only straighten a little. It helps to do work on axe with the drift in place.So,if that work gets too violent,the weld can stress out as well. That's just loose thoughts in re:Planning.

This is what you're risking,Jeremy.Looking at this should give anyone a VERY sharp, intense shot of sciatic pain,just looking.Ugh.

Jeremy,right on!You've done a MUCH beter job than i've ever had the patience for(but i did usually had a rope-twist berween the mounting holes and the heart,by making the heart smaller,you can buy 12" spikes for that,and it'll give you those few inches more). Be VERY carefull,these hooks are awful,in that everyone likes them so much...It'll turn into a job for you,wether you like it or not.(I hate to refuse anyone,but hate feeling like i'm in a sweat-shop of my own making even more...Plus,they're so small,it kills my back tinkering with jewelry type stuff...So i pretty much avoid ever showing them to folks so they won't ask me for them.Can i send them over to you now?!). Bryan,hold off!Don't look at what i'm doing at all,i'm playing at a very particular game,i'll explain later. What is it that you'd LIKE to do?Can you post some pictures of the axes that you liked,that appeal to you for any reason?We can start there,it'll be a good place to start,as a matter of fact. Don't ever worry about being over your head,we all are,or it's boring as h...You're lucky in that you don't even realise yet just how much misery the axes will cause you,so enjoy it while you can! :)

Didn't get very far on the axe,but will post a photo of the blank,to show just how irresistable,candy-like,it looked! Also,a picture for you Beth,that's my automated diswasher system. (It's an Alaskan Red-backed vole).

Wow,Thomas,you've smashed a billet on End,into a thin disk?I suppose that does tell one something about the weld seams! Beth,i guess what i meant was that growing up in USSR,where religion was outlawed,was interesting:By age of 13-14,i couldnt've even define the word "religion".Later,i've come across ANY number of religions,and,thanks to my twisted past,could effortlessly accept them without any prejudice... (literally )But by then i could see plainly that everyone simply calls the same things by different names,and it's all completely INNATE,encoded in us. As far as the plurality of god,i'm not so sure that the many cultures that had been accused of that were,in effect,worshipping several gods.It might've been all a misunderstanding.For an example,our local savages,in their very savage shamanistic past,had certainly The One beginning of everything,were monotheists to the core(their religion was actually spookily identical to Christianity,including such details as the original sin,the flood as punishment,confession on the deathbed,and many other). I won't show you my bellybutton technique!It's copyrighted!!!Well,ok,i'll admit that it sounds more exotic than it really is...It's simply a marsupial-style fold in whatever apparel you've happened to be forging in,to support the tongs while you use both hands.The leather apron makes a skoocum one(Technically,the anvil should be positioned low enough where holding the reins in your crotch should work,but as the space of ground around the anvil gets stomped down,and age/eyesight,as well as some of the smaller/more precise work make that height more natural,it's inconvenient,though more secure). The reason that i went to the flat dies was that my bottom die was flat,and the top - a fuller.One thing that it did was break the weld-seams in a laminate,as it scooted the top of the stock more relative the bottom.It was fast to draw stuff using it,but i'd rather not torture the steel like that(forging down large WI stock damaged it severely,a part of why i've been loosing stuff lately). Well,i've been a brat today.Instead of working on kitsch,like i'm supposed to,grabbed a chunk of W-2 that i had laying about,and started on another axe,solid steel,this time...(I didn't have that much coal,and was too hungover to design as i go,after the neighborhood conference yesterday).Making more charcoal now,and should be back on track manana. W2 is lovely!I' m so pleased to be working with something that i can't hurt.It can really stand up for itself,kicks back like a vicious mule.And is WAY elastic,as compared to WI that i've been using so much lately.(But i love it all,a terrible Fe junkie,just can't help it... ).

Neat,Beth.Sometimes,such an enforced vacation from the shop can be very constructive,in many ways.At the very least,can give one the time and the space to actually plan something out,for a change... You don't have your own casting capability,Beth,like a small vacuum se-up,or anything?How much of this kind of stuff can you get away with at home?Carving wood,say?Or,maybe some cold-forging? I've an opposite problem here-i'm chained to my shop,spend so much time in it that don't have the necessary distance from work to orient meself. There was a massive social convergence here last night,everyone in the whole village seemed to've decided to visit me on the same day.It was all that i could do to wash the tea cups fast enough,and not to miss out on any gossip. Sounds,by consensus,that i've another two weeks to spend forging,before the really good fish hit(though this sort of rationalising and planning is usually frowned upon by the River,and is punished often by one thing or another).In any case,i should mop up the more scattered projects,and not start any more long-term ones till october. Might've gambled and lost here,on turning my top drawing die into a flat one(had a friend hard-face the missing profile corners).Have no experience with flat dies,and have to re-learn to use my PH. May have to do more bull-work by hand,as a result,not an ideal situation,as i'm hopelessly right-handed,very one-sidedly so.Between the forging,splitting all the wood for charcoal,and all the rest,may loose that arm soon(dreaming of someone twisting your arm is a sign of overuse,so is the arm going numb at times,not a constructive way to go with any tooling). Still at a design stage with the gothic creature,have to keep on forging separate elements and seeing how they'll do,or not do.The overall idea was to be the homage to the lines of that inimitable ceiling in the Gloustershire Cathedral that Beth posted,but will end up a hodge-podge of diverse parts,my lack of specific skills being very limiting,in forging as well as the final finish,that'll have to be consistent,of course. The plasticity of material and the physics affecting any 3-D object in general all present limits,(thankfully),but it's that lack of prowess with one's hammer that is always so frustrating,the one non-constructive limiting factor.The "style",the plasticity of iron,even the physics are helpfull in their finite limitations,wether ineptitude-is not. All the references to God are great,but quite abstract to me,coming from that background that i've come from.The specific terms matter not at all,however,for we all speak of the same thing.Instead of a stern(but loving) Deity of the Gothic masters the myth that most appeals to me is that of "The Velveteen Rabbit".That,to me,is the ultimate goal and challenge of a craftsman,who,like the Boy in the story,can make something "Real".That is the magic,divine aspect in craftsmanship in a nutshell(one of many,but a good one). Tried out something that i haven't done before,yesterday,make the transverse cuts on a cube-twist variant using a hardy and a hot-cut,holding the work by a method known to some as a "prehensile bellybutton".Awkward at first,but it worked,and i like the less-regular effect of hot-cutting vs the hack-saw,with it's tell-tale sq.recess at the root of each cut. I'm ever more impressed with the weldability of latest batch of WI.Upset a fresh faggot-weld yesterday,and made that cube-twist out of it,a lot for a diffusion weld to put up with.I really like it.

Wow,Phil,you must be pretty good at this research stuff-it sure seems like the same,or very similar thing. I'm a little embarassed for not being able to ID an 5160 or similar alloy,as i've molested leafspring aplenty,in the past. But makes good sense,that that's what they'll be,and i thank you for your help!

Thanks,Thomas.They're used-up,but still weigh about 20-30lbs a piece.I lack the technology to cut them right now,but will find an occasion to throw one on the plane for Bryan to tangle with (tooling out of it may last a while).

Beth,your comments are FAR from bother,they're where it's At,please don't keep them from us! And for the pictures,as well,i bow very low,and again;not only are they incredible historic elements,but also are what attracted your,the fellow-craftsman's eye,your choice of elements,making them even more significant. Danger,yes,it's true,i'm following my nose back into the dark and intense past of the northern european crafts in search of the Code!(Not that it can't be found by going any other direction,it's simply writ upon our brain).But here's very roughly what i'm thinking: Early woodworking(splitting along the grain for strengh and finishing with fine,sharp cuts for weather-proofing)was the beginning in the study of materials,wood and iron(and Carbon ). Then,with the Christianising of Scandinavia,the Stavkirk,and further development of the theme-the end-strengh of spruce+phasal changes of Fe+C.Then the Gothic cathedrals(same deal,+the stone comes in there,being used in quite the same way). The nominal logic stays the same:God has created us,thus it behooves us to do justice by such a marvellous deal-the Creation,our skill and fluency within it,the magic interaction of our nervous system and the surrounding material.Thus,God was the ultimate motivation for the craftsman,as in "Look,ma,i drew a flower for you!" (Same conclusions can be come by going in any direction from a given radii(our brain )for"Everyone praises God in his own tongue,and there's no language that God does not understand(even postmodernism ). Anyhoo,the important elements are the practice,of course,and keeping one's mind open!(It's cool how many elements of the Muslim geometric stuff there's in Gothic,must be the Crusades ).But the practice is the key. Thus,our hand on the hammer,the axe,the cook-ware,touching the molecules of the Creation,pretty much should tell us what's a pleasing form. Now,that's what i've been thinking,however,translating it into iron is a different story.I'm trying to keep designing that gothic-like element/candle-holder potentially by just weilding a hammer,with very disappointing results so far.I'll post some shots of a developing small detail. It didn't feel right,so i swithched tack and went to re-make that one poker that i liked where it was going,and have given the original away.Got screwed on that,too,by barking up on too big a stock:I wanted contrast,and a tricky,counter-intuitive balance;a massive-appearing IRON object that'd feel light in the hand(sword-like ).The resulting xxxx handles like a bar-bell ...WAY too much iron(1 1/4" round that i bumped-up to 1 3/4" ball,i'm a xxxxxxxx maniac...). But,all the screw-ups,they all happen in the forge,with the hammer in hand,and i just feel that it's right and proper....(Other than my time's slipping away in the(however Godly )pursiuts,and come showtime,i'll have nothing but theory to present the public.I'm SURE that they'll understand,though,and support me most generously,as is their wont ) .

Doc,thanks,Joe's stuff is neat,and very well executed and balanced.What gave you an idea of anything "new" there?Also,seems like things like that would be more likely to be executed in other metals(and Joe's patina even kind of hints at it),so,what makes it so "iron"?(Hope that i don't come across as facetious,i'm earnestly asking how you've come to form your opinion,and would very much like to know,so most respectfully...). Bryan,the drift is all-important,in my opinion,as the haft pretty much determines the purpose of the tool,the grip on it,and thus it's use.The blade actually FOLLOWES the shape of the haft. What would be your purpose for the tool,other than practicing tool making? Also,don't use chrome based alloys for blading,they're HEINOUS to weld(chrome oxides aren't dissolved by flux).Now i really kick myself,as i've some 1095 here,and could've thrown it in with your other stuff...Anyway,plain C something would be best,like a file fragment which is W-1 if you get lucky,or the like. Beth,thanks yet again for these cool photos.I like your painting,and again,everything about it says "nice person"!I'm not at all surprised that it sold,as it practically makes you feel better looking at it...If i'd had that sort of a talent,and earnestness to use it, i'd do it for sure,in any media whatever! Actually,i'm not doing this discussion justice,lately,too wiped out mentally after the forge.I feel bad about it,but it'll soon go away,as my time for forging is drawing to a close till October(it's a dreadfull thought,as i've nothing done,of substance). So i hope to at least catch up here,and one thing that i'll do is quit being weirdly coy about the "useful" aspect. Danger is absolutely right when he says "hindered by ...",and it is so,but as well as a limitation,the purpose(like the axe,say),is also a direction,a way to capitalise on the intuitive store of vast,generational knowledge,to tap into the millenial interaction of a man and the tool by means of the nerve-endings in his hands...All of which is visible and/or percieved in the Form of an object,even by the uninitiated onlooker. The fantastic stuff in photos that Beth posted,the old gothic stuff,what is it rooted in,it's forms?In part,it is the hand/eye/material coordination of a craftsman,a wood-carver,a mason,a smith,of course.All that went INTO the design,became a factor in 1.Why it was shaped that way.2.Why others(even,again,laypersons)are attracted to it. Those are not just designs.Those are a record of a man becoming better with tools,more familiar with materials,and even the physics in general(holy s..t,the engineering of those vaulted ceilings alone!!!).It's a genetic code of craft! Now i KNOW that i'm wasted mentally,had an almost 12 hour forge day,change of PH bits,all sorts of misadventures...I better fall into the bunk,apologies for nonsense,and for what i missed addressing...

Shoot,that's how long it takes for my comp.to load stuff-only noticed above video after i was done writing! :D

Sorry,guys,in AK it seems such a common tool,and a term,that i didn't even think about it...It's a hydraulic(thus,hydro...it may be a brand,too...)attachement for a front-end loader,used for clearing brush and trees.Commonly,the road shoulders,for visibility,but any clearing job at all.It uses blades,such as above,or sometimes sections of chain,to beat the trees into pulp. I was given a truck-load of these by our DOT guys,when they swapped them out for new ones. Now a friend,in Fairbanks,is looking for med/high C steel to build up his tooling,and i thought that these may make him some dandy guillotine bits,or some such. But,actually,the sawzall blades REALLY object to cutting these,so it may be a moot point in any case.It does spark fancy-several different sparkler kinds B)

Raymond,I'm sorry,but that PDF link comes in "broken/unable to repair"...(to me,Thomas,does it work for you?)