jake pogrebinsky

Thanks,Jeremy,that clears things up a little. Dave,i'm sorry,i express meself often in a confusing manner(my thinking process is a confused and confusing can of worms).Of course you're absolutely right in that a stronger blow,under given heat,will produce relatively bigger upset.Actually,even in general,upsetting requires a maximally heavy blows. In that is a part of my prejudice against upsetting in a vise:A vise,most commonly,is mounted at elbow height. The radius of swing being what it is,the work chucked in a vise does not lend itself to being struck heavily in a convenient manner. I do at times end up striking at something in the vise,and have to mount an overturned bucket to do so with any authority(which looks and feels even more ridiculous than it sounds ). But again,it's just me! :P

Mr.Wooldrridge,you've mentioned a number of most interesting things here,i have to exercise restraint not to ask about each and every one of them.Right off what caught my attention was the amount of time-4 weeks- that this job took.It was somehow gratifying to read that even such an experienced builder such as yourself doesn't get a job like that done overnight... If i may ask,was that meant as a standard,8hr/day;5 days/week sort of 4 weeks? Practicing blacksmithing as a regular trade,maintaining the shop,paying the bills,et c.,was always a great mystery to me,so please forgive if the question seems indiscreet,i'm just somewhat naive in my isolation... Also,i full well realise that you've better things to do than answer endless questions on the internet,so please don't feel any obligation to elaborate in too much of a detail(or at all,even ).I simply can't resist asking a person who's been at it such a long time... Thanks in advance!

I can relate in that i don't quite understand the abstract art,often not sure what to make of it,yet often,those many shapes and curves do stick with you,the old pea-brain files them for later use... The whole,though,the setting,and the story behind the house,and those beautiful grounds,it's fantastic,Mick,thanks! Especially that building in the first photo,that's all red brick,and red clay roof tile,it is incredibly appealing for some reason.Wish but that i knew something about architecture,as well as abstract art!But those stepped butresses look so cool! Can't help but wonder if the place is chock full of neatest ironwork,too! (Window and door hardware,fireplace stuff,or even the structural stuff,like those braces that Beth posted...). Wonderful place!!!

Incredible,Mick,simply incredible...Thanks so much for these rare photos.Some of the specifications are gruesome,such deep holes!The access to some of the places looks scary-makes one wince involuntary,can't see where one would have much left of one's knuckles,or hands altogether,it must take decades to learn to do much of this without destroying one's hands constantly... But,what beautiful machines these were!That one in the first shot is great,i like that steering quadrant on the front axle-looks heavy-duty! Steam is such strange stuff.Many think that it's an antiquated technology,which is kinda so,but also not quite:I don't know about the British fleet,but the US Navy is all steam...(Nuclear-fired water-tube boilers,i'd guess). Our village here runs diesel generators to make electricity.The fuel is way expensive,and the alternatives are always discussed.My friend has just filed this grant application for a steam generator for the city,about 10 megawatt.To my amasement,the machine itself is a regular,reciprocating piston engine,not a turbine or some high-tech creature that i was imagining...Most municipal power in the US is generated by steam boilers of one type or another. Thanks again,Mick,that was awsome to see the real boiler parts and to read such detailed description of details!

As usual,when for whatever reason i'm not able to forge myself,i try to post some photos that may,in some rounabout way,be inspirational and of help to others. This particular one is not necessarily as direcly related to forging(i've tried to also post some photos of moose antlers,for their interesting mass-division that is handy to see when doing organic work,but the site is not cooperating today,oh,well). Still,just for giggles. There's this great,dying cottonwood tree next to my house,that serves as an observation post for all the predatory birds around.It theoretically belongs to a bunch of local ravens,but anything at all can be seen perched on it at times.4-5 local owl species are my favorite,there were two big male Great Horned jobs on it the other day,but it was dark,so no photos of them. Anyway,this is an immature Bold eagle.They get their iconic white head/tail coloration only on their 8th year,as they become sexually mature. They're migratory here,following the waterfowl migration,and this one is about to take off south(every night the air is full of migrating geese and cranes,now,they love flying in the dark,in the moonlight especially(no moon now)). The ravens are not too happy to share the post,but are not doing much about it above squabbling somewhat.(They're hefty birds,and can,and do,sometimes,kill intruding birds even much bigger than themselves.They've killed a Boreal owl here last winter).

HWooldridge,thank you,that is VERY interesting view! Frankly,i'm facsinated with the whole subject of the difference between the smith's taste in ironwork,and that of a layman/consumer. I've never heard it put so subjectively,thank you for an interesting thought. (My own thoughts on the subject are odd and fudgy,i can't help but to get led astray into the ineffable...). And thanks,JK,for a pertinent question,i'd also be interested in hearing about how the air is supplied.

Dave,right on,i hear you on all that. Very well put that it is Whatever works for You principle,absolutely. I,too,have NO justification whatever to be dogmatic,the longer i work at forging,the less so,in fact. There's a couple problems,though,that i see in what you've said above:1.It's odd to me to attach too much meaning to the Force of blows in upsetting.Upset is an operation requiring strong,penetrating blows,AND(all importantly,high AND strategically applied heat).It's the heating that determines WHERE the upsetting will take place,more than the hammer blows themselves. (And that is something that will make this whole subject difficult for the gas-forge user,BTW) 2.We're going too far out on the limb of theory here,and i'm sorry for my part in it. I'm sorry as well that it didn't work out for you to apprentice with these people.My entire forging career was spent in a complete isolation from others,and it's one of the things that makes me an odd-ball. Maybe some day you'll have a chance to do a journeyman-ship,or something of the sort. Very best of luck,meanwhile,you're doing GREAT,man!

Very well and competently done job,my most sincere congratulations! Texture in general was never my cup of tea,and this doesn't change it,but tastes do differ.Neat correspondence between the texture of the frame and that of the (oak,i presume)trees. And wonderful to get another order too!

Sweet,John,simple and to the point.Thanks! I'll risk adding the following:Once you come up with a butt-joint collar of a correct size,it's easy to turn it into a lap-joint,if desired. Simply draw out each of the halfs of the future butt to a taper.The lengh of each taper should not exceed the lenght of that whole side of the quadrangle,but can be somewhat less.Lap one over the other...That's it. Although differing somewhat visually,the holding power of such a simple lap is equal to that of a butted collar. Spears,i'm not sure how Dave did the upsets,but holding the stock in the vise is not a great way of doing it. Upsetting is best done by hitting a lengh of stock against the anvil-face,or hitting the end of stock with a hammer as it lays across the anvil,protruding over it. The distortion of stock during upsetting is almost inevitable,attempting to control it(frequently spinning stock around it's axis),is where the learning lies.Just don't let it actually form a fold.Short of a fold,the distortion is but a character-builder If you wanted to automate the process,the upsetting matrix can be made,but it'll require a better-than-average precision hammering,as it'll be a mechanising function,and require other mechanically-precise actions,and teach you nothing about forging(but a lot about machine-forging ).

OK,Dave,i'll temporise,and say just to BEWARE of the clock.It IS one of the tools of mensuration,and any trade,forging maybe especially,needs to be measurable to be controllable.But,don't take it too far,do not create a factory job out of it,it'll hurt the creative side without which you'd be non-viable as a producer of appealing,desirable objects. You can see how reasonable,temperate,and informative John's advice is.I defer to him in everything,and bow most humbly.His is the voice of experience and wisdom. You're good about accepting criticism,(and it's most laudable),and i knew it,or wouldn't have spoken thus.It's a great trait,and you'll go far in forging(in the similar stages i was cranking out simply unbelivably crapulous work,didn't know any better).Technically,you may already be better than i'll ever get. One more thing:That poker,as sketched,is useless as a poker.That is the design practiced by the unethically mass-produced manufacturers in Poland,Indonesia,and many other places,and by people who never had to stoke a fire in their lives. Make one of the types of a working poker,it's actually easier :)

Dave,right on,you're happening right along! My thoughts(and only since you've asked): The top and the bottom of stand are from two different operas.The bottom is from the "primitive",Am.Colonial or older British styles,while the top is getting much more complex,with the reverse-bend curliques and the wrapped/collared juncture of several parts. That juncture is somewhat unfortunate,as the eye,travelling from the bottom up,tells one that it'll be something simple and straightforward,and here is quite the reverse.Also,that necessity to mig-why?Everything else about the piece,especially the laborious weld,indicate the simplicity,the hand-forged idea. Mig and torch ARE different tools,it's hard to incorporate them into design without an incongruity arising.Especially if you've no gas,and here you've comitted yourself by creating a spot no longer able to fit your fire.It would've looked better to continue with the simple,hand-worked ideas. Conversely,you could've spent less time on the weld,matching the bottom juncture to the top in design by collaring it,too. Time-wise,i never believed that looking at the clock made any sense.This is a good example:You've already exceeded what a cheap,bent crap would cost,so that a customer wanting to pay a miserly wage for a minimum number of hours will already be horrified. As you get better,and the more interesting design features will appeal to you as a craftsman,you'll have to forget about the clock(or forget about quality,AND the satisfaction from your work as well). Well,it isn't exactly the "NICE!" kinda post,oh,well .

Sorry,Beth,i should've posted it right off:https://picasaweb.google.com/Fe.Blacksmith/HEFAISTON2011

Well,i tried to steal and to upload here the work that i like the best,but it didn't work-the day is not propitious for posting photos on here But i think that what appeals to me most there are the grills!I really like it when the work looks "hidebound traditional" at a first glance(gives it a certain class),but there within,for a discerning viewer,the elements bend and are shaped to some very original forms.In some,there may even be a degree of humour,of mockery of the canonic. I like many elements from many of the forgings exhibited,but overall,what i wish i'd have made myself,are those few grills(i also really like the one where some very broad elements are passed through slitted/formed openings,neat control of slitting and drifting!). If you look at Claes's Picasa collection of photos,there's an attribution of each one to an artist mentioned by name.

Those photos of Norwegian stuff are great,Beth.Here are some more by the same photographer,Claes Wahlberg,of Sweden,who goes under a handle of Fe.Blacksmith on that Russian blacksmithing site,Ostmetal.Sorry if i've misspelled your name,Claes,it's such an international soup here ). http://forum.ostmetal.info/showthread.php?p=3141460#post3141460 It's some of Claes's photos of the Hefaiston,the forging festival in Chech Republic.There are more following the link to his Picasa site,also links to photos of previous years' festivals.

That's right,the water-tubes were also rolled in!Copper,eh?And 300 of them,oh my,the funny,zippy little things That is excellent that you're holding on to the old tools,they need to be treasured,and loved.Altogether,it's just wonderful to discover a real,living boilerman,and in your person,out of all people,Mick!Of course,it'd be fantastic to see any pictures of old engines,tractors were,of course,the ultimatley gorgeous beasts! Our steam experiments have rapidly reached a place where it became obvious that a machine shop of our own was not an option but a necessity.My friend Phil have since come into an 8' Southbend lathe,and his milling capacity is almost on line now as well. We've access to a bunch of scavangables from the mining industry here of 100 years ago or so,but the size of this old equipment is too great,we'll have to be building our own.But many important extraneous parts such as oilers,injectors,and sight-glasses,do come in very handy.We found a 3/8" Penberthy injector that turned out to be in a perfect working order. Seems like loving iron in general allows one to see the beauty in a rivet pattern,just as well as in a pattern-weld,but maybe i'm just an old hippie,trying to lump it all together...But i definitely view all engines as one of the highest forms of sculptural expression,as well as the rivets in old plate,or the intricacies of stays inside a boiler(I also,lord help me,am not shy about forging stuff out of the more wore-out,or simply less-classier parts of boilers or even engines... )

Darn it,Mick,now on top of envying you the PW stickwithitness i'm also wistfully mulling over such a rich metalworking background such as yours.And,(just like damascus),i couldn't even do this right...The pipes in our boiler are all welded in,when my buddy Phil and i were putting it together we couldn't afford the right tubing,or the expanders to install it(even the mechanical ones are out-of-sight expensive),it's all sch.40 black pipe,welded in...No rivets,either,the shell is all welded,pipe-sheets and all... And all that we had the nerve to take it up to was 75psi,just happen to've had an old safety on it that opened at that pressure.Need to go higher,as it's very inefficient at such low pressure. The engine that this boiler was supposed to run turned out to be gutless after it was rebuilt,we'll be trying again with an old twin cylinder(as soon as we get our breath back),this one is a wonderfully built old horizontal twin. The goal here is the marine propulsion,but if we fail(again!),it'll do to run a power hammer,it can now(the flat-belt wheel that is belted to an electric motor on my old LG is peculiarly similar to the one on the engine ). Romanticism?Sure!How CAN one go without it?One simply can't,but since the cruel-hard work seems to be axiomatic part of life as well,they might as well go together! (And,about ALL that we're rich in here is wood.Forests of wood,rivers plumb full of driftwood!Although an occasional coal-seam too,but not too close(so we need that steamboat!). There's nothing like the machinery of old to learn to FEEL the iron.The rivets,the punched openings,all sorts of forged parts and castings,that practically VISIBLY resist one force or other.Even just gazing at some old machine one mentally traces those lines of force,and counter-force,of balance,of resistence being overcome... To've been an actual,skilled part of that process is priceless,my hat's off to thee...

Darn it,Beth,you just had to post something like THAT,when i was hoping to just write a quick note and escape from the spell of the monitor... the photos are taking their time to dial up,i may effect my escape yet... :P

John,thanks yet again for more examples of forgework from your glorious scrap-pile! I owe you an apology for a misleading use of the term "Hot",i actually meant it as a colloquialism(?),as an alternative for the more commonly used "Cool" But,since it has worked so well,i'll continue to mix-up my similes in the future! Sorry about that,we've more important things to discuss here than misapplied jargon. I too vote to refer to you as an Oracle,for the depth and breadth of your knowledge and love for the traditional English ironwork. I mean it quite literally when i say that it's a priviledge to be able to communicate with you so directly here,to read your clear,concise views and thoughts. (And,look,this discussion with you here has already even bore the tactile,ferrous fruit,in at least this one instance of Jura's element above). But i've simply meant the work that one really likes,perhaps to the point of wishing to've done it oneself. :P

"...Jake, I also really like the shape of that piece (and most of the others John posted). I usually like more contemporary forge work, but that piece caught my eye. Nice organic scrolls and that flower makes it different from more regular scrolls...." Jura,that's exactly what i mean,there's SOMETHING there,some quintessence,let's say. I'd love to see some examples ironwork that you find inspiring,Jura,if it's not too tactless to ask.Also,Beth,John,Jeremy,et al,could it be an interesting idea to post a shot or two of something that we think of as a Hot forgework? You've done so,Jeremy,some while ago,with the reference to those Ukranian sites,but it wasn't specific at all,and dissipated in a flurry of internet links.What i mean is a photo of a specific forging,and a specific opinion. Sorry,i'm writing between a bunch of things that are happening around here in the same time,plus my connection is so slow,that i may be missing out on the flow of conversation(but hopefully not the spirit of it )

VERY competently-looking element,well done,Jura! Just the fact of seeing the importance of this,and similar elements,speaks highly of a given smith's imagination.There's a great meaning to these "simple"-appearing details such as this one of Jura's,and all the examples that John was so kind to post. They're,among other things,a very tricky BALANCE between the structural,the geometric,and the organic.Each of which has it's own requirements,balancing which with others is a complex juggling act. I see this one of Jura's as a good example of this:The branches look organic(the way real branches meet and part on flora).Yet,their curves/tapers are FAIR(geometric concept used in trades,such as boatbuilding,as well).And,the work of working/tapering them was minimal,as in the old ones in John's pictures,so that some fairly standard,rectilinear stock couldbe used,making smith's work at least somewhat efficient,and therefore doable. Good going,Jura,i really like that one,thanks for showing it,man.

Great,Mick,just great. The flaring of an end to secure a section of a tube is a technique called "rolling in",it is how the tubing is installed into the fire-tube steam boilers.It's a neatest method,as it leaves both parts firmly mated yet independent,disallowing for whatever possible bi-metallic stresses to occur(rivet-like,but turned inside-out ).VERY good thinking on your part,seems like an ideal method for the situation! Seems like one of the services that the jewery shops offer is the sizing of a ring,apparently there's some leeway in increasing/decreasing the dia.,but it's probably more for the much softer non-ferrous metals technology. That fat ring does indeed have a VERY cool pattern where the parts join,wonderful,Mick! Thanks for everything,the books sound very interesting,your work is a joy to look at,great thread altogether!

Mick,thank you so much for all this information.Now i won't worry about digging for that obscure article,as your expanded answer gives anyone plenty of leads for a thorough search. You do beautiful work,and your explanations and comments are MOST clear and concise,i always learn a very great deal by reading your comments here and elsewhere.It's a tremendous priviledge it is to be able to thusly communicate with one of the world's premier authorities on pattern-welding. There are many of us that could never dedicate the necessary time and resourses required in the process of learning this amazing craft,so thank you for sharing your hard-earned expertise,very kind of you. Another question,if i may:Is the silver lining the inside of the ring attached mechanically,pressed in or the like,or is it some form of electro-depositing? Thanks again,Mick.

Teenylittlemetalguy,i've come across these old records quoted in an article by one of the more well-known russian knifemakers,Leonid Archangelskiy.It'd probably be silly to post a link to it(or maybe not,electronic translation does ok sometimes). Anyway,i could do that,or translate just the stats that he uses in his article,just give me a couple of days to dig around for it. Possibly there's also a list of reference material,and that's likely in English,or German(or maybe Flemmish ). I can post it here,if it's ok with Mick,or elsewhere(sorry for diversion,Mick).

Excellent attempt,Jura,right on! Though the imperfections will always be there for us,striving for the technical excellence,it's still a great object. It could be overheating,not sure from photos,but practice with your usual material will rid you of all these small nuissances in short order. The slight unfairnass of curves i think has to do with the different thickness at transitions,particularly covered in that priceless essay of John's on Sequensuality of it all.The pre-forming to control the inevitable deformations that happen with welds,in particular(I need to print that out,and hang it where i can keep re-reading it,there's so much there that is not immediately obvious). But,again,fantastic element,Jura,good on ya,it's a joy to see something that neat!

Wonderful work,Mick,thanks for showing this. The coming together of the pattern on the ring is very neat,was that your calculated intent,or a fortuitous happenstance?(Although the Turkish twist looks great no matter how the parts come together,as your barrel section indicate). I've read long time ago how in the 1800's,at the resurgence of the damascus gun-barrel fashion,it was mass-produced in staggering quantities.Apparently,some cities in Belgium such as Liege,were producing damascus in amounts measured by hundreds of tons a year(?!),offering the barrels in a dozen or more patterns...Having read your description of the process i found it even more mind-bending...