MattBower

Make the tongs. It's a traditional starter project. I made my first pair. They were pretty bad, but they worked. http://www.blksmth.com/tong_article.htm http://www.dfoggknives.com/photo_gallery/NedborTongs/nedbortongdemonesmw.html The first two show making bolt tongs, which is a bit more complicated but good for spikes. Flat tongs are easier to start with. On that last one, don't try to forge weld the reins as a beginner. Just draw them out. If you start with a long enough piece of stock you can forge the two jaws on either end of the same piece, draw out the reins, then cut the piece in half to separate them. Punch or drill a hole for the rivet. Drilling may be easier if you're working alone, but if you plan to drill you should leave more material in the area of the joint for strength. It's not ideal, but you can cut off the head of a big landscaping nail to use as a rivet; that way you have one head of the rivet already made for you. There's also a guy on eBay named Ken Scharabok, who runs a store called Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools. He makes functional tongs for hobbyists and beginners at a lower price than you'd pay at Blacksmith Depot or the like, although the quality isn't as high. He fabricates them. I have a pair. They're decent. (And he doesn't claim more than that.) You don't need a steel mill; you need a steel retailer or a scrap yard. Got a Tractor Supply around you? They sell mild steel in the basic forms on their website, so if the store doesn't have it they can probably get it for you. And there's usually lots of scrap metal lying around in farm country if you look for it.

You might also see if OSHA or your state equivalent have any relevant standards.

The problem you're running into, I suspect, is that makers of small forges for hobbyists, farriers, and smaller shops don't tend to be highly sophisticated operations. They don't have engineers and lawyers on staff to tell them: (1) that they should develop recommendations for this sort of thing, for their own protection; and (2) what those recommendations should contain. (That's probably one reason their products tend to be less expensive than commercial forges by some of the larger manufacturers: less overhead. Of course smaller operations also make less attractive targets for litigation when someone dies of CO poisoning.) Try a larger operation like Johnson Gas: http://www.johnsongas.com/ You might also try a larger industrial forging shop like Kropp Forge: http://www.kroppforge.com/. People with deeper pockets have more incentive to think about this stuff, and better resources to help them figure out good answers. They also tend to draw more attention from regulators. But be prepared for a more expensive answer than what you're getting here.

That one made me do a double-take. It's very rare that you see the word "spinster" used in its older, more literal sense anymore!

I know the feeling. There's the right way, the wrong way, and the way I can afford . . .

I think your plan would make a better hammer than what you currently have. I also think a solid column of steel from top to bottom, per Dave's advice, would be even better. That's just my gut instinct on this.

All true, although on blades the first two will usually be dealt with by finish stock removal, assuming you follow the old, "forge thick, grind thin" maxim. Unless you're spending a great deal of time at welding temperatures, the decarb layer isn't likely to be very thick at all. But as I said, I forge at lower temperatures as thin areas begin to develop.

Yeah, that's not going to be an adequate bellows. Too small, air flow inconsistent. There's a reason the old-timers' bellows were enormous and double-chambered. Stick a blow dryer on the end of that pipe. You'll need to add a way to divert or choke some of the air flow. If you're into the neo-tribal thing, you can also build a double-chamber bellows from a couple five gallon plastic buckets. This setup is inspired by skin or pot bellows used probably since before the beginning of recorded history. I have not tried it, but it seems plausible for a small forge. http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/132816/Bellows#reply-132816 There's no reason to go stealing brake drums to make a forge. (Let's drop the euphemisms, shall we?) I started smithing with a Lively style forge made from a washtub lined with adobe. Works just fine -- in fact it's probably a lot more flexible than a brake drum.

Geez! That takes me right back to Rob Frink (Beaumont Metal Works), which is embarrassing because I'm already planning to buy some parts from him! Dang. I knew somebody was going to make me feel dumb, but not this dumb. Dave, thanks for that link. Those are a few dollars cheaper than the ones Rob is selling, and I'm pretty sure it's the same pulley.

I've been looking at step pulleys online, in connection with the belt grinder build I mentioned in another recent thread. All the step pulleys I'm finding are die cast zinc rated for fractional horsepower motors. I want to be able to run a 2 HP motor. Machined and balanced steel or cast iron is supposed to be far superior to cheap die cast zinc (and I believe it), but I haven't been able to find any machined and balanced step pulleys online, even at places that specialize in power transmission stuff. (Of course someone will come up with a link to prove me wrong, but I swear I've looked!) Variable pitch pulleys would be an option, but they don't give as much adjustability as I'd like. So, two questions: (1) Is this worth worrying about? (2) Does anyone here know a source for machined and balanced step pulleys? If need be, I can use higher quality single diameter pulleys and take a hit on speed adjustment. But I'd rather not.

I can't see how herbs in the quench would have any benefit for the steel. Even if they leached some potentially useful elements into the water, it takes a verrrrry long time for steel to absorb alloying elements if it isn't molten. Phil's theory sounds much more plausible.

Because it's a good idea to run slower belt speeds on wood to prevent burning, and with fine grit belts on metal to keep the heat down. But more belt speed means faster stock removal for hogging, and some of the fancier belts don't work as well or last as long at slow speeds. So it's nice to have a least a couple speeds available. I have one of those HF router speed controls. I used it to dial back a nice portable blower for forges, smelting, and that sort of thing, before I knew any better. Bad idea. Didn't seem to agree with the blower at all. I didn't let the smoke out entirely, but it got very hot and developed a whine that wouldn't go away. Bummer. Should've used a damper. Continuously variable speed would be neat, but the price is just too high for this project. I can always add a VFD later if the opportunity arises.

Good idea. For economy, I'd like to use the motors I have.

Thanks, Dave. That would be a good option, but if I'm going to cut down to 2 HP I might as use the 2 HP motor I already have. I was considering Larry's idea of building two grinders, but after pricing out some different options I think I may have found a cheaper way to get acceptable results. I have a 3/4 HP, 1725, 120V motor, and a 2 HP, 3450 RPM, single-phase 240. I'm thinking of building a single grinder with a drive shaft driven by a step pulley, then mounting both motors on tilt mounts with the shafts roughly equidistant from the driven pulley on the grinder shaft. With the right pulleys I should to be able to get speeds from around 850 to nearly 8000 SFPM, with a 4" drive wheel, using the same drive belt. The lower speeds would be at lower power, but that's fine because they'd be used for wood, deburring, finishing, etc. The higher speeds would come from the 2 HP motor for serious stock removal. I'd just have to make sure the belt was connected to the correct motor, and flip the proper switch. A little crude, yes, but it'd do all I need at a lot less cost than a VFD, or building two separate grinders. This way I'd only need to buy one set of wheels, which is nice because they're a big part of the expense.

Poor, rural areas in India can get or make meaningful quantities of powdered aluminum, but they don't have leaf springs? In any event, please don't feed the troll. Thermite is not a practical one-off method by which an inexperienced person can produce a useful 130 kg anvil. There many problems with this idea. We're talking about a 600+ pound thermite burn. Just think about that a bit.

(1) Cast iron is a very different material from steel, both in terms of its mechanical properties and in terms of is casting properties. (2) Thermite generally produces close to pure iron, which would make a poor anvil. Adding alloying elements is very tricky (but not impossible). A great deal of experimentation would be required to get a useful product. (3) There would be many problems with making and safely using a thermite charge large enough to create an anvil sized lump of ferrous material.

I might go ahead and grind and HT it, and see what happens. I woulfdn't sell it, for sure. A little caution is warranted. Color is definitely subjective. 1500 looks solid orange to me. Some call that a low red. Ambient light makes a huge difference.

Grain growth can be fixed. It's fine to suggest that a new smith not forge at such high temps, but that's not the same as saying that yellow is categorically "way too hot" for forging blade steels. It isn't. Welding temperature of course varies by steel, but I'm talking several hundred degrees below that. With respect to the oxides, I'm not talking about superficial scale, which we all deal with. I'm talking about oxides penetrating the grain boundaries of the steel. This can happen if (1) you get the steel to solidus temperature (so that the grain boundaries start to liquefy), (2) in an oxidizing atmosphere. Unless those two things happen, there won't be any oxides along the grain boundaries. If those two things do happen, you've blown it. Trash that piece and start over.

Impurities and potentially oxides segregate along the grain boundaries, which embrittles the steel. It's very difficult or impossible to reverse this.

I'd love to do it, but for me it's less a matter of money than of time. I just can't get away to NJ for a week.

Hi Dan. I live in Prince William County, a bit north of Quantico. I don't get out your way that often, but shoot me a PM and maybe we can get together and forge sometime. I have used a flatter on wide, flat blades, as a final step before going to the grinder. I found it somewhat helpful, but it's no miracle cure. As others have already suggested, eliminating those big pockmarks is mostly a matter of good forging practice -- heating in a reducing atmosphere, keeping the anvil clean (and relatively free of dings and blemishes), and removing scale frequently while forging (whether it's by wire brushing or wet forging). Big dings from the hammer can also make the surface look rough, and the only solution for those is hammer control, which is a matter of practice. I have to disagree somewhat with Steve about high heat being completely inappropriate for carbon steels. It depends on your definition of high heat. If you're seeing sparks you've blown it (at least as far as blade steels go). But if you look at references like the Heat Treater's Guide, the recommended forging range for simple carbon steels is from around 2100 F down to 1500. I don't go quite as high as 2100, at least not intentionally, because I do most of my forging with coal and it's easy to burn steel, so I try to leave myself a bit of a buffer. (Industry is also normally working with heavy hammers and presses, so their steel gets shaped much faster and the total time at high temps is lower than what you get with hand forging.) But for heavy reduction -- drawing out tangs, making integral bolster blades from thick cross-sections, etc. -- I generally start at what I'd call a low yellow heat, with a fairly large hammer. I lower the forging temps and the hammer size as I get closer to final shape and start to develop easily burnt points and thin areas on the blade. Higher heat causes a lot more scaling, so that's another reason to lower the temps as you approach finished shape. I try to stick to the advice not to forge below around 1500 F, although like many smiths I sometimes can't resist a few extra whacks. But there's nothing to be gained by low temperature (sub-1500 or so) forging that you can't do better with proper heat treatment, and with less risk to the blade. Here's some good advice on this subject: http://www.cashenblades.com/forging.html

If you don't mind having to figure out how to completely disassemble and reassemble it, ruining the patina (he did say he doesn't want to blemish the blade), and generally destroying most of its value as an historical object, that is. :blink:

I know a bladesmith who does very cool, crunchy-looking work with parts of the blades unfinished. He textured a hammer face by welding little bits of scrap to it, and he uses that for texturing the unfinished parts of his blades. It leaves a gnarly surface. I imagine you could do the same with swages.

Neat! Here's an explanation. http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/homeexpts/tarnish.html But those guys say the silver and Al actually need to be in contact. I wouldn't go adding current unnecessarily.

With junkyard steel, you have to experiment. There are too many variables for me or anyone else to tell you the "right" tempering temperature. Among many other things, it depends on the geometry of your knife. A 3" paring knife can be left much harder than a 12" camp knife. For most spring steels, in larger blades, 400 F isn't a bad place to start experimenting -- assuming you got the blade full hard in the first place. Steel grain should look silky, only slightly rough, like fine grit sandpaper. If you can see individual grains with the naked eye, it's too big. If you want to know what really good grain looks like, snap the tip off a high quality file (Nicholson, Simonds, etc.) and keep that handy for comparison. (Just lock it in the vise and give it a solid rap with a 3 pound hammer, right where the file meets the vise.) The normalizing cycles that Don suggested will also help reduce your grain size, which may be large due to the effects of high heat during forging. How did you fix the break?