Adair

Howdy, I have the opportunity to pick up a very old 18" conehead lathe for a song. I've wanted to tinker with a big lathe for a while, but I also want to keep my focus on forgework. I'm sure everyone understands the appeal of a new machine tool. This acquisition would mean trading 12" of shop wall space. I'd be putting the lathe in an environment that is probably hostile to its livelihood. Since I don't have much training with machine tools I can't say for sure that I will get the use out of it to justify the trade-off in shop space. It is rather long for what I imagine using it for, but it is a beautiful old machine and in fine shape. I don't make a living with the shop, but I'm trying to stay disciplined in keeping an orderly space for creative things to happen. Does anyone want to chime in with their experience and talk me out of a lathe at the price of scrap? I should add that I currently have a Southbend 9A which is great for all the little bits. -Adair

Now that is cool! I've always wondered about that process. -A.

Knots, I can see that our minds travel similar paths. However, I need to stress that what I am trying to explore here is heavy dishing and not raising. My goal is to get away from raising which to me is neither enjoyable nor efficient. I've raised copper, I've raised up to 12 ga. sheetmetal with heat. I am trying to find a way to draw deep vessels from heavy stock, not gather deep vessels from sheet. The video below (one of many on the Maglio of Bienno, Italy) is what first got my imagination going. I know I can get hung up on an idea, particularly if there is a cool machine involved. For that reason I'm not trying to fixate on a very specific outcome (though I have plenty of sculptural applications in my sketchbook). I do know that deep vessels were forged in the past and I am skeptical that a flat sheet was the point of origin.

I want to try to keep this topic on track, there have been some really good points made. I'll try and move this forward. For what my ultimate goal is, I really need to make a purpose built hammer. For the time being I'd like to experiment with my Little Giant. As Nuge pointed out, the last lower mandrel arrangement I showed puts a lot of overturning force on the die. I'm probably pushing the idea too far. The intent is to do hot work on these dies, hands well clear of the moving parts. I'd like to start with at least 1/4" material, probably thicker and see where I can go. The ideal progression is shown below where I would dish the center portion as Metal Mangeler described, leaving the rim unforged to contain the stretching. From there (and this would involve a purpose built hammer) I would try to draw down the rim with fullering dies to try to minimize the spreading of the overall circumference. (See diagram below) A purpose built hammer to work the rim of a deeply dished form might look something like this crude sketch: Knots mentioned a shrinking fixture for a pulmax. I believe he was referring to a thumbnail shrinking die as used originally on sheetmetal power hammers like this patent: This is effective at drawing in or gathering the edge of sheetmetal to shrink the material. I've often imagined if there was an application for this in forging plate, but in my experience this type of die requires uniform behavior in the material, in other words the die works because cold sheetmetal resists and contains the portion of the "tuck" that is being compressed or shrunk. Still brainstorming. May not build anything anytime soon, but it is fun to plan for it. -A.

Knots, Agreed. As I tried to show in the last series of sketches, the tooling never exceeds the height of the standard die. That was the reasoning for removing the sow block in the first place. I think my 100# hammer may be a bit too much oomph to test this idea. A 50# ram would be ideal. I can cycle my Little Giant very consistently right now without any erratic blows. That makes me feel confident that I can feather my blows enough to try this out. -A.

Neat Guy, The Pullmax type machine is awesome, but limited by their long, skinny throats. I'd also like to design this for hot forging with the intent to move the thickness of the material quite a bit more than a nibbler would. A purpose made power hammer would be ideal, I'm just trying to work with the Little Giant that I have to see what kind of sculptural applications I can explore. -Adair

I believe the heavier the material, the less sense it makes to attempt raising. I noticed in the Big Blu video they misuse the term, since they are 'dishing' the shallow vessel. Their tooling is interesting, but it looks like press work. Too slow for what I'd like to try. I am convinced there are faster means to shaping deep vessels. I have a strategy, but it always involves specific tooling that I don't have time or money to make. I am also considering inverting the male-female die arrangement so that the male is on the bottom, similar to how the metalshapers configure their dies. This would give more clearance around the dies, allow for greater control of the workpiece so that gravity always has it resting on the contact point, and keep ones hands clear of the moving parts of the ram. The lower die could be held or clamped in a socket receiver so that dies of different radii could be changed easily. This arrangement would also allow the use of a mandrel for a lower die if one were working the sides of a deep vessel. It would have to be one heck of a mandrel. Of course that is purely theoretical since I have that giant cast iron base in the way with my Little Giant. -Adair

It's been fifteen years or so since I watched the Clifton Ralph videos. I have a vague recollection of a mandrel lower die. Must borrow them again. For my needs, I may purchase the interchangeable upper die from the Little Giant company and fabricate a sinking hammer head long enough to reach as deep enough to reach the female lower die set in the sowblock dovetail. Yes, I'll be cautious to maintain clearances of the toggle arms and the wrap around guide. I'll try to put an image together to clarify my idea. Thomas, that fellow sounds like quite the innovator. I only do those kind of things on paper. -Adair

Hello all, I've been designing a power hammer forever to dish steel plate 1/8" and heavier. I don't think I'll ever tackle the project. It occured to me that I might have some level of success by reconfiguring my 100# Little Giant. I could remove the sow block and design a lower female die with a corresponding top male die extension devetailed into the ram. Has any one tried something like this or seen something similar? I never see any tooling designed for the sow block position and I wonder what's been done. -Adair

I'd love to know more about the insides of the ram. This could be a cool hammer build some day. The drawing isn't revealing its secrets to me. Can anyone explain that? -Adair

There are a series of metalshaping books by Tim Barton (deceased). I haven't set eyes on them yet, but have seen glimpses of similar machines covered in those books. Wow, it would be tragic to scrap that machine, but that's easy for me to say since I'm not tripping over it to make a living. There is so little documentation available on the use and development of hammers intended for forming plate and sheet metal. I'd be knocking down your door for that hammer if I were in your neck of the woods. Had this one in my files as well, lebelled "longworths sliding fulcrum hammer". My understanding is that these heavier forming hammers were likely employed for marine and industrial coppersmithing. If you ever have the chance to take more photos of the works on that Brooks Hammer, I for one would really value it. -Adair Orr

This hammer is crazy cool. Any update on the project? I found the attached image a while back in a random google image search. I'd love to have more information on this type of forming hammer. -Adair

Does anyone have a source to help me identify the sheet metal capacity of my recently acquired Chicago Brake. It's an oldie, and I can't seem to dig up anything on line. I'd love to be able to brake 16 gauge. -Adair