cliffrat

A good question T.J. and I'm sorry, but I really don't know what a "coffin joint" is, so I cannot answer that portion. A frame handle, on the other hand is my preferred design choice for a number of reasons. I find it much easier to finish the handle off of the knife than try and assemble everything and then shape and sand the handle with the blade sticking out of it. (I usually end up nicking the blade with a disc or belt sander when I try that) Also, it allows for a number of embellishment options. The guard, spacers and frame are all platforms for file work, or patinas, or pattern welded material (Damascus or Mokume). Some folks have told me that a frame made with any metal is inherently stronger than just a wooden handle, but I can't say that is true, because I'm not a structural engineer and I haven't done or read any test data on the subject. I do enjoy the ability to create interesting elements anywhere I can in a knife. Adding a frame handle allows for the extra areas. Even if it's a simple one.

I haven't drilled the fifth hole in the handle scales yet, and it's difficult to see it, but it's in the tang. There is a final pin that goes through the handle and the tang to act as a mechanical connection. Also, the tang and inside edge of the frame will be notched with a grinder to create an uneven surface. Epoxy doesn't like sticking to smooth surfaces. Putting notches along the length of the tang and the frame locks the tang in better than just trying to glue it in.

Nice looking knife T.J. I'm sure she will love it.

A frame handle is a little different than that, but it is another good way to fit a handle around the tang. In a frame handle design, the handle is made and completed off of the knife as a separate element. The tang is shaped more like a triangle with the point cut off, centered on the back of the ricasso. Here is a small dagger I'm making with a frame handle of 416 SS frame and bone scales. The first pic shows it dismantled (mostly). The frame is cut out to fit around the tang and is pinned to one of the bone scales. The guard and spacer package are in rough form waiting to be shaped to the finished handle. Once all of the parts are shaped, sanded and finished, the knife will be assembled and glued together. For some reason the photos got reversed.

Thank you for the clarification. Before continuing with the general discussion, you have made a statement twice now and I need to address its inaccuracy before it takes on a life of its own. "So you can defend them all you want and spout off how great they are and all that.." I am not sure who you are referring to. Firstly, I am not defending the ABS, I am asking you for specifics with regard to accusations you made. That's an important distinction and one worthy of your honest response. Secondly, I did not "spout off how great they are and all that" anywhere is this conversation. Please do not exaggerate my meaning or add extraneous meaning to my intention, which is to find out who did what, and when. The who is still unknown exactly, but it can be safely assumed that they were members of the ABS. The what is still somewhat vague, but acceptable as presented. The when can be deduced by correlating with the publication dates of your books. That puts the events in question between 21-30 years ago. Hardly current events or representative of the current state of the organization. Let me make an analogous story for a moment. Let's assume that you are a home builder. The American Building Council (ABC) is a fledgling organization dedicated to writing building codes, standards of practice, education and certification of builders who know the codes. You are writing a book about the same subject matter. Some people (we will call them Mark and Andy) who are certified "code professionals" by the ABC take a disliking to your writing and engage you in harassment and intimidation. You call me, because I am the president and a board member of the ABC and ask me to stop Mark and Andy. I explain to you that Mark and Andy are acting on their own and do not represent the views and opinions of the ABC. If they are threatening you with physical violence, that is a legal and police matter that the ABC cannot get involved in. The ABC is not able to control what its members do in their personal lives, so I cannot help you. You interpret this as "go pound sand." Now consider this connected series of statements: Mark and Andy are harassing Jim. Mark and Andy are members of the ABC. Cliff is the president of the ABC and refuses to help Jim. Therefor, we can conclude that Cliff and the ABC are supporting Mark and Andy and are responsible for the harassment. This is the type of conclusion that would fail the most basic quiz in a logic 101 course. Frankly, I think that you are way too intelligent to fail Logic 101, so do I have to assume that you have left something out of the story?

I would not be surprised either, but just because some dimwit with a bloated ego says something doesn't make it the opinion of anyone else in Mr. Dimwit's group. I don't know the smith you refer to, and I don't really need to know who it is either. The ABS doesn't promote any specific techniques as the "right way" or the "only way" to do anything. It sounds more like someone deciding that a certification of some form made him the expert and the only person in the room who's opinion mattered. Sad, really. I had a teacher once who said "When you think you have nothing left to learn, it's time to find another occupation."

I like them both. Nice work T.J. Your choice of embellishment for the handle and hardware is nicely conceived and well executed. Like Charles said, figure out a way to keep some sharpening tools handy and you have yourself a set that is very servicable. The axe lines are sweet! Keep working it bro, you are doing fine. If you have anything about it that you would like to change, but aren't sure how to do it, ask away, show us a photo of it, and someone will give you some guidance

I really appreciate the knowledge sharing Bubba. I am moving towards making more alloys for my knife fittings. I just get tired of the same old materials and love the experimentation. When I was hammering out the Shibu and I got small surface cracks, I would dip it in a weak pickle solution before reheating. Then I would slightly over-heat the piece until the surface started to melt and the cracks closed up. I wondered if this was causing me any more problems. Folks around here are making me reconsider how I heat this stuff. I currently use an oxy-acetylene torch. How do you recommend heating for the annealing? Oh yeah, that made my wife laugh.

Try a youtube search. There's probably a dozen videos out there. Oh yeah, I think most straight razors are hollow ground.

I don't know what you are shooting for in terms of a finished look, or traditional blade design, but here's an idea. If you are filing the bevels in, I suggest you either buy or make a center scribe and a filing jig/guide. Then take one or more of those files and remove the teeth from one edge. Then you can scribe the center line of the blade edge and file to it and you can clamp the file guide where you want the plunge cuts and create the plunge lines and a ricasso area.

I find a Dremel tool (or any rotary tool) is an incredibly useful device. I highly recommend getting one at some point. The wire wheel is great for cleaning scale off the blade and handle. You can get one for the angle grinder. Clamp that blade in a bench or post vice and wire that thing clean. I sometimes soak my blades in a weak solution of PH Down to help remove and soften heavy scale buildup. It's a dry acid that is used for swimming pools and you can get it at most home improvement stores or hardware stores. Mix about a cup or two to a five gallon bucket of water. A lot of that scale will wipe off with a paper shop towel. The texture left behind can be pretty cool or pretty ugly, depending on your perspective. The firm backer and sanding disc combo for the angle grinder might work, I don't have any experience using them for such a small surface area. A filing jig and a center scribe would be good tools to have, and you can make the both of them from scrap. I did, and they both work fine.

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around all of this, and I am not questioning the integrity of either Steve or Jim, or the validity of their stories. If the legal attempt to suppress either of your rights to publish a book on any subject was undertaken by the BOD of the ABS, I would find that reprehensible behavior under any circumstances. If it was a matter of harassment by one or a handful of individual ABS members acting on their own, not on behalf of the ABS BOD, and they tried to make it seem as if it were, that is not only reprehensible, it should have been addressed by the ABS with reprimands and public apologies. (just my opinion) Every group of people, officially organized or otherwise, will have its share of buttheads and over-inflated egos. That's just people being people. To quote Douglas Adams, "People are a problem." From my personal experience with the ABS over the last 9 years or so, I can honestly say that this thread is the first time I have heard about any member of the ABS trying to suppress either of your writings. Nobody has ever mentioned Steve's book and the only times I've discussed Jim's books, both of the conversations were positive about their value and both conversations were with ABS Master Smiths who recommended them. So, I guess the distinction I'm trying to understand is this: Was this "heat from the ABS stormtroopers" actually coming from the ABS directorship, or are we talking about some self-appointed goons?

I am assuming you are using a solid abrasive wheel, so forgive me if that's incorrect. They make flap wheels in a variety of grits up to about 400. I think that 's the finest grit I've seen anyway. You might be able to achieve a smoother finish by using those. You could even make a two-piece stop/guide from two pieces of steel that you could align where you want plunge cuts. As for suggestions an how to make this type of knife differently, check out these posts on another forum: http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/index.php?/topic/2088-another-rat-tail-hunter/ http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/index.php?/topic/2074-blacksmith-style-hunter/ I hope your interview went well.

JPH: I would just like to say that although you don't know me at all, you were my first teacher and a fundamental inspiration to me as a bladesmith. Your books came highly recommended by two ABS MS even after I had already purchased them (back in 2004?). I do not know what the particulars are in your history with the ABS, but I do know that there are 3 sides to every story. Each party's side, and what really happened. It takes two to tango. I agree that someone with your reputation and name recognition probably would not benefit so much from a membership in any organization as the organization might benefit from your membership in it. I however would greatly appreciate someone like you joining, just to have your opinions, methods, and techniques represented on the ABS forum. I am something of an anomaly myself in this business, and place a high value on diversity. Thanks for taking the time to join the chat.

That's why it's a jury and a majority vote carries. This is standard practice in the industry (art world speaking). In any jury test, the jury wants and needs to speak with the applicant, ask questions about the submitted pieces, technical or otherwise, in order to verify the applicant is associated with the submitted works. Why should the ABS adopt any other jury method? Just because you think it makes it impartial? That's a rather subjective viewpoint. You may have seen it happen in other organizations, but have you personally experienced it during an ABS JS or MS test? Or, is this second or third hand information about what goes on? Not that I discredit the idea entirely, I believe the potential is there. However, after speaking with many ABS jury members, I feel confident that the judging criteria is the bottom line and there is a system of checks and balance to avoid personality issues. Any MS who wanted to fail an applicant based on a personality dispute would find themselves never being invited to jury another applicant. I would echo the opinion of Jspool above: "The ABS, in my mind is made up of folk of the highest integrity and sense of brotherhood."

I think what astounds me the most about everyone here with negative attitudes towards the ABS is that they base that attitude on, and cite stories from, decades ago. Now I don't mind if you want to use old baggage and hold a grudge, that's a personal decision you make for yourself, but don't superimpose that event, and the personalities involved onto the entire organization, and don't assume that just because you haven't changed perspective, neither has the ABS. Organizations change with the times, increased knowledge bases, and leadership. I'd like to clear up a point made by J.P.H.: The ABS does NOT say its members cannot make stainless steel knives, or forging stainless steel is going to decrease performance, or is "impossible" to forge. These are common misconceptions about the ABS (although these opinions may have been voiced by a few members previously, just as some stock removal guys have been noted as saying that forging a knife "messes up the steel" or that Damascus blades are inferior to stainless ones). The criteria for the JS testing (interestingly enough, not the same for MS) is using high-carbon steels, and the test does not allow use of stainless alloys. The reasoning behind this is simple, it tests a smith's ability to perform a specific set of criteria, using a narrow range of materials. It's called "setting a standard", and it levels the playing field for applicants. Allowing a smith to use any steel they wish introduces options for smiths to use steels that probably could perform the test under the worst of circumstances and that defeats the purpose of the test and alters the playing field. There are many ABS smiths of all levels, who use stainless steels in the knives they make. No, it is not "forbidden" or even discouraged by the ABS. Here are a few excerpts from the ABS website regarding the JS test and the materials a smith can use (courtesy of past board chair, Greg Neely): this is only a test and a one-time requirement. You are free to carry on as you will, once the test is finished. My point is that your potential isn't limited to knife-related organizations, shows, or your rating, so good luck and get in there! How much simpler can that be stated? Please don't take isolated incidents from bygone days and the opinions of specific people and claim that these are the ABS's official stance.

Teeny, Bubba put a list of different recipes with accompanying names for them in a previous post on page 1. Some of them mix a little gold in them, (I assume for coloration?) I think Ferguson mentions using different ratios of copper to silver as well, pointing out the different working characteristics. I've been using a roughly 50/50 mix mostly because I screwed up a mokume billet and decided to just melt it down.

We use our garage as the shop. It's a three-bay garage and we were using the single bay as the shop. +/- 29' x 12'. In the other two bays we packed an F250, a Toyota Tacoma, and two motorcycles. We started suffering "shop creep" and I haven't been able to park my F250 indoors for well over a year now. Good thing it never really snows here.

I'm not sure I understand your point Charlotte (I can be rather obtuse sometimes...) Do you have a general dislike of trade associations?

Only a few pieces of misinformation here. First of all, the three year wait is for the JS test elligibility (reduced to 2 years if you take an intro to bladesmithing course from an ABS accredited school). You don't have to wait another three years to test for MS. Two is the minimum. Secondly, it has nothing to do with whether or not they "like you", it has to do with whether or not your work meets the published criteria. http://www.americanbladesmith.com/uploads/file/Testing/Judging Guidelines for JS and MS Candidates 4-24-2010.pdf Next up, is the "panel of 5 judges" item. JS testing is five, MS testing is seven. The applicant must get passing grades from a majority of the judges on the panel. Panels are comprised of previously rated MS makers. I don't understand this bit at all: "The ABS has become a political entity in and of itself ". In what way is the ABS a "political entity?" It's a trade association. The same as any national association of trades workers or a nationally recognized Artist League. I noticed that you belong to the PA Artist Blacksmith Association. Is that a "political entity?" Is paying your annual membership dues to them "playing games?" No is the answer to both questions. Your decision to pay your PABA dues is a business decision you made. Just as my decision to join the ABS and ABANA, and SAL, and AABA were all business decisions for me. Just as they should be business decisions for anybody and be based on factual information. These decisions should not be based on unsupported claims and biased opinions. You imply the ABS membership dues are some huge amount of money, ($65/year) and the return from the ABS to its members is zero. Frankly this is misleading. The membership dues are on a par with all of the related organizations that I belong to, and the benefits of membership (with or without the JS or MS stamp) are equal to, or above the returns I get from other similar groups. I'm pretty sure the same is true for the Knife Maker's Guild membership, although I have not joined that group, yet. I am not saying that you are not a good knife maker unless you join the ABS or KMG, far from it. There are many excellent makers out there who belong to neither one. I judge the tree by the fruit it bears. I suggest that method for everyone. So, aspiring makers can view the knives you make and decide if they want to take classes from you, and they can view the knives that ABS members have on the ABS forum galleries and their personal websites and decide if they want to follow the ABS path. Either one is a valid choice that individuals must make for themselves.

By Jove I love this place. Get ideas every time. The only problem is there's always something new to buy.........it wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that the shop is already way too small. And the wife just bought a TIG welder.

And just in case anyone was wondering, this knife is a full take-down design. Which means it comes apart.....

Nate, The designations of Journeyman, and Master when referring to craftsmen or tradesmen (or women) have been around for centuries, if not millennia. They started with the development of the Guild system, probably in ancient Egypt or Greece. These organizations were made up of respected craftsmen in the society and were largely self-governed as far as determining what the criteria were for Journeyman or Master classifications. The guilds became what we now call Unions and are still largely self-governed with respect to establishing levels of competency and awarding the tags of Journeyman or Master. In light of this historical method, the ABS is following a traditional development of a group of competent smiths who organized themselves and established criteria for membership and competency testing. The only real difference between the ABS and the guilds of old, is that in the old days you simply weren't allowed to practice a trade unless you were sanctioned by the local guild to do so. This is still true today in some European countries like Germany where laws exist to limit what can be done and by whom insofar as various trades are concerned (carpenters, roofers, welders, electricians, beer brewers, etc.). Like I said, the guild system was replaced in the USA by the union system, and the art of the blacksmith all but died with the advent of the industrial revolution. In the early part of the 19th century, you went to a blacksmith if you wanted anything made out of iron or steel. You want a shovel and a pick? Go see the blacksmith. You want a new bit and halter set for your horse team? Go see the blacksmith. Today you go to ACE hardware or a tack shop for that stuff or buy it online from one of dozens of retailers who buy it from factories all over the world. The ABS is a throwback to another time, and I respect that and I appreciate what they do. If you don't and think they should behave differently, I think that you have two choices: 1. Don't join. That's your right. 2. Join and try to help guide the organization in the direction you'd prefer. I don't think anyone has the right to sit on the sidelines and throw stones anymore than I think anyone has the right to deny someone else the right to practice their art the way they choose to. Just my opinion.

And a Google search of his name + knives provides very little evidence of his existence. I mean no disrespect, but I am gracefully bowing out of this conversation.

Librarian, When you say "I ran a 26 grit wheel on it after I forged it, and used a (slightly worn) 36 grit wheel to get it to this point." What exactly are you referring to? Is this a wheel on an angle grinder?