Luke March

Are any of you familiar with timber framing/timber frame structures? I'm trying to figure something out about my shop, and was hoping I could ask someone who has knowledge/experience in that area.

Yep - Student pricing is $85, normal pricing is $140. The reason I'm hesitant is because $85 is still quite a lot for me.... even with food and housing taken care of. I would love to go, though. Maybe I should add "help fund sword research" to my Etsy ad for my twisted J-hooks.... If I could sell the one's I've made, that would cover the cost :rolleyes: . Oh well. I have yet to make any money from any blacksmithing I've done.

Wow, that's really cool - I didn't realize that happened so close to me. I would like to go to that - if only for the two sword sessions. I've got a brother who lives in Kzoo, and I could stay with him.... The only thing holding me back is the money, since it would involve me missing work, plus paying $85.... which is a lot for someone in engineering school. I guess I'll have to see how my finances are doing by April 25. I take it this is an ideal event to "meet and associate with people doing likewise." Are you going to be there, Thomas? I've started looking at De Re Militari - very interesting stuff!

Ratel - Thank you for that. I've started looking up Peter Johnsson, and yes, he seems to really know his stuff! And his work looks really nice, too. Ric - You got it! I am basically trying to work out the system "on my own." Of course, I don't want to start completely from scratch where others have already figured things out, but I also know you can't just believe everything you read out there about swords and how they work. (You couldn't anyway; so much of it contradicts itself). If I could get the chance to measure even one original, that would be awesome. The ideal thing would be to make measurements of many, many originals, and not just dimensions but also weight, balance point, CoP, etc, etc, etc. From the sound of things, most museums would not like having vibration testing done, although I am quite certain it would not harm the blade (at least ones that aren't all rusted): it involves attaching an accelerometer to one point with wax, and making little taps all over the blade with a tiny plastic headed hammer. That is interesting about the flex. I guess I had just assumed that harder=stiffer. But your explanation makes sense. By the way, I came across Kevin Cashen when I was researching Peter Johnsson - and found out he lives about 40 minutes from my house. His work looks amazing too - and I like his attention to detials of metallurgy. Basher - I guess my point in mentioning well-made replicas is that I have heard that some of them have the same or similar handling characteristics as the originals. In any case, I would want to compare them to originals to see similarites and differences. "I would narrow your sample down to a certain type of long sword at a certain place in a certain period, what you are asking is akin to trying to model the european car(over the last100 years) and limiting your sample to only rear wheel drive." To use your analogy, (and apply to american cars since I'm not as familiar with european cars), I think what I am asking is more in the line of understanding how the car works - If I looked at a Model T, a 1968 Cadillac, and a 1999 Pontiac, there wouldn't be much that was apparently similar.... But under the hood, they are all internal combustion engines. If I were 600 years in the future, and wanted to understand "how cars worked in the 20th century," I could get a good a good idea of the operating principles by looking at those three. If I wanted to build a specific make and model year, I would do best to study as many examples of it as possible. But for understanding the general principles, the more variety the better. (IMHO). Of course, this needs to have bounds - studying civil war sabers will not tell you much about the principles for longsword design- but I wonder if the bounds really need to be as narrow as you put them. I think information is transferrable, too. Studying principles of longswords will not necessarily tell you the right principles for a single-handed sword, any more than studying principles of semi trucks will tell you how to build a sports car, but some information will be transferable. Your point is well taken though - perhaps a better thing for me to do would be to group longswords according to era and location, also taking into account the fight traditions in those areas. (I'm by no means expert in swordsmanship, but I do know enough to know that the German and Italian schools had some differences; perhaps these differences were reflected in their sword design principles) Then the data could tell me whether or not putting them together in a larger group is justified. Thomas- Glad to have you correct me on the weight. I have read different numbers in different places, anywhere from "almost never over 2 lb" to "between 3 and 5 lb." I guess that's part of the point of this quest of mine: accurate information. There's just way too much bad information out there. That's part of the reason I did my vibration project on swords. Do you have any advice for having museums allow you to take data on their artifacts? Also, I realize most surviving european longswords... are in Europe. Have you found any good museums in the U.S. with originals?

You've heard it before. Or, perhaps, if you're one with more experience in the area, you've said it or something like it: "Historical blades handle better than most replica blades." or "You should handle originals to understand what a real sword is like." or "To start making better swords you should handle well-made reproductions" Now this has always made me wonder, "What is it that separates originals and well-made replicas from others?" Of course, the answer has to do with the thickness and cross section; nearly everyone who wants has access to pictures of originals and well-made replicas, but that just gives us the silhouette. We usually have no information about the thickness, and (also usually) not being swordsmen, we just guess at what might work. The generally given solution is to practice swordsmanship and handle originals until you get an idea of what a sword is supposed to be like. What I want to do is understand the engineering and physics principles for making a sword that "handles correctly." Now, before anyone jumps on me, I want to offer these "disclaimers": I understand that swords traditionally were and are handmade, no two exactly alike, etc. There is of course a difference between understanding a system and having the skills to build it. I also understand that certain sword properties will depend somewhat on the preferences of the swordsman, and the type of sword. For the purposes consistency in this discussion, let us assume we are talking about the European Longsword. I also understand that some would claim that the sword is "far too complex" for "that kind of analysis" (i.e., an engineering and physics analysis) because there are "far too many variables." Quite frankly, I think that idea is rubbish. Engineers and Physicists have characterized and understood and built systems far more complex than the sword. Of course, to understand what is meant by "handles correctly," one would also need an understanding of historical swordsmanship, which is something I am working to acquire (studying WMA/RMA/HEMA, not sure what the difference between them all is, if any) There are a number of characteristics which would have to do with the handling characteristics of a sword: Weight Balance (Center of Gravity or center of mass) Dimensions (length of blade and hilt) Blade Flex Center of Percussion (has nothing to do with "harmonics") Modes of Vibration Weight - I have not heard an awful lot about weight, other than the things I have read to dispel the rumors of the 20 lb sword (I still ask people how heavy they think a sword would be, and they say 30 lb or 40 lb). That being said, I think the weight for a longsword is supposed to be in the ~4 lb range. (Someone please correct me if this is wrong, or add more information if you have it! Preferably with links to original sources.) Balance - Again, something I know little about, other than what I have often read about the center of gravity being 3 to 5 inches above the cross, and (as a generalization and at risk of oversimplification) stabbing swords have the balance closer to the hilt, chopping swords further out. Dimensions - Don't have much to say here, other than that this will affect the balance and center of percussion, and will depend on the swordsman. If you have sources on the proper dimensions for a longsword, especially in proportion to the swordsman, let me know! Blade Flex - This would have more to do with material and heat treating, as well as thickness. I can imagine a non-destructive test method to measure this, using equipment I have access to. Center of Percussion - Now here is something I think is often misunderstood. There is an excellent article about this at the ARMA: http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm (Warning - the article is quite long, ~30 pages if it is printed all out). I will not re-write here what has already been written about so well. Also in relation to the CoP is this research on baseball bats, which I believe is quite relevant to swords, since the basic physics is the same: http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats.html Modes of Vibration - This is something where I have actually done some research myself. As part of my acoustics class, we did a vibration analysis research project on an object of our choice. We did a sword. Unfortunately, I have access to neither high-quality replicas (out of price range for a college student) or to originals! So I used the next best thing I had - which happened to be the united cutlery "sword of strider" replica from lord of the rings. The results were still interesting. In addition to the actual experimental data we gathered from the tests, we did a computer simulation, called a Finite Element Analysis, to look at the vibration, and we did a completely theoretical approach, which started with math and physics principles to build up a prediction for the vibrational modes of the sword. (Euler-Bernoulli beam theory with mass loaded / free boundary conditions) Attached is one of the modes of vibration discovered in our experiments; the pommel is to the left, and the peaks are greatly exaggerated for clarity. The sword is viewed edge-on. See also http://s169.photobucket.com/albums/u228/Luke_SkyMarcher/Vibration/?action=view&current=Mode241_69Hz.mp4 My tentative conclusion from some of the computer modeling we did, and also the comparisons between the theoretical and experimental outcomes, would be that blade geometry has little to do with mode shape. Probably much more important than where a particular node lies on the blade is the vibrations around the tang, which, according to Dr. Hrisoulas, is where most sword breakage occurs. There is also a section on this in the ARMA article I linked to earlier. What I would like to do in the future is perform measurements on good reproductions, and hopefully originals at some point. I am planning to build an apparatus for easily measuring the center of percussion of a blade (see the ARMA article for how this is done), and I will have access to the vibration testing equipment during three month segments of time for the next year and a half. My questions for you all are: Do any of you have sources to help fill in some of the gaps? Does anyone have originals or well-made replicas that they would like to have tested? This would obviously be more easily accomplished if you were in the Michigan area, or willing to come for a visit. Any constructive input or discussion is welcome! Luke 41.69 Hz.bmp

I got the grinder in a box kit, and very much like how it turned out (though I still have to add the platen and workrest). While the part of the kit which you buy from polar bear forge is around $260, after you total up everything else (wheels from beaumont metals, bolts, motor, switch, wiring, etc.) you are going to be more in the $700 range. I have a 2 hp 3500 rpm motor for mine: that grinder will pretty much eat whatever you feed it. (sure beats the 1/3 hp bench grinder I used to use). In short, I would recommend the grinder in a box kit, though I will readily admit that I have no experience with the others.

That's really cool work Ed! I'll admit I'm pretty much ignorant when it comes to the how to of wood carving - where did you learn how to do it? Or perhaps more importantly, where does one get the information on how to?

Greg, Yes, my gear was brass or bronze. It took me a long time to find a replacement for this gear as well - in the end, I don't remember where I ended getting it from, but I dug through my old emails and found the specs/measurements I had decided it was. A DP of 20 45 Teeth A PA of 20 deg. An O.D. of 2.35 It was also 1" wide. The gear I got to replace it was 1" wide as well, but the teeth were only 1/2" wide (see the pictures earlier in the thread). I think I used a 1/2" or 5/8" shaft. I hope that is helpful for you.

Actually, I intend to use it like this: If you put a roller bearing on each side, what was in the middle? Did you just leave it empty?

Thanks, that at least points me in a helpful direction. I'm not sure if I can do the bearings in the arm, since I'm going to use the multi-platen. But then, my only experience with adding/replacing bearings of any kind is the bronze sleeves and babbit from my forge blower. I don't even know what type of roller bearings would be appropriate.

Larry, I'm building one of these grinders in a box, and I also got a 10" contact wheel from grizzzly. I'm wondering, how did you set up the bearings for it?

So, I am finally going to build myself a belt grinder. Since I am rather new to the world of belt grinders, I have a question for those of you with more experience. I have heard/read more than once that good quality belts are important... So where do you get your belt grinder belts, or what brands do you use?

I appreciate the advice Rich. My dilemma is that I don't have a way to vary the speed, at least not to begin with. I'm wondering which belt speed would be better for the single speed until I am able to upgrade to variable; 3600 ft/min, or 5400 ft/min?

This brings up a question I have. I am planning a belt grinder build, and, at least to begin with, the speed will not be adjustable. So I have two choices; should I get the 4" drive wheel and have it run at 3600 fpm, or should I get the 6" drive wheel and have it run at 5400 fpm? The intended use of the grinder will be for blades, armor, and general purpose.

Thank you! That is very helpful.

Brian, You said that the fullers were 1.5"; diameter.Does this mean that the curve on them would be part of a 1.5" circle? If so, how wide are the fullers - since they are clearly not a cylinder? Also the support tools - do they have the same radius as the fullers? and how wide (thick) are they? Finally, I want to say that I have found your posts very informational and inspirational. I'm in a bit of a quandry about where to start right now. I want to forge a hammer like yours, but I have to back up and make these tools first. Unfortunately, I don't think I even have all the tooling to make these tools yet. I have: anvil(securely mounted), swage block with cupped indents, cut-off hardy (flat-topped) and a 2.5 lb hammer. I also have a sledge, 8 lbs I think. I don't have: tongs for large stock, hammer eye punch, hammer drift, flatter, or well developed muscles. The trouble is, with my skinny arms, and no one available to be striker more often than not, each of these is a fairly large project for me. Do you have a suggested order of what tool should be made before what? Sort of like a progression, first make this, and you will have a better tool to help you make this...... Thanks for any help!

Thanks for the feedback you guys have been giving. I enjoy hearing about your previous quad state experiences, it certainly seems worthwhile to go, if I can get the details worked out. Steve - I see! I should have looked more closely at your location. My "mode of transportation" will mostly depend on if my family wants to take a trip that weekend... Unless the schedule changes, my last final exam is on Friday of that week, then I will be free to leave, straight from Flint.

Good info, keep it coming! Steve - I'm not the one who would need a ride, that would be Dave. Is the tailgating good enough to be worth it even if you only have like $100 to spend?

Hi Rob, If your blower is the same as mine, there are three bolts that have to be removed. Also, the fan has to be taken off the shaft, and the crank handle has to be taken off of its shaft as well. It ought to come off fairly easily after you loosen and remove these; but if yours is anything like mine was, loosening them may be the bigger problem. I hope that helps. Luke

So I have heard/read that quad state is THE blacksmithing event to go to, and I think I might be able to make it this year. The SOFA website (http://www.sofasounds.com/conference2011/2011index.htm) has some information, but not enough to satisfy my curiosity. I know there will be: Demos Buy/sell/trade beginners classes But I still have some questions.... Should I bring my own forging equipment? I don't have a portable forge, so I would have to build one... I don't really have a 'portable' anvil, as mine is 180lbs (it weighs more than I do), and the only thing I have that's lighter is my HF ASO.... Can anyone use the beginners forging area? While I'm not highly skilled by any stretch of the imagination, I don't quite consider myself in the beginner category anymore ( I do know how to draw tapers, make square stock round, round stock square, upset, forge weld, etc.) Registration fee - Is that just for the one who would be doing 'smithing' stuff? Can "family members" include your parents/siblings? If anyone wants to share their experiences, stories, highlights, and/or pictures from previous quad-states, please do so; I'm very interested to get a better idea of what it's all about

beth - I forgot to mention, it said that the mirrors were cast bronze. In regards to those amazing doors, it makes me wonder what it would be like to live among beauty like that - if everything was built to last hundreds of years, and handmade with beautiful details worked in. It makes me wonder if I would take it for granted.... The way I got my computer to translate is this: I downloaded and installed Google Chrome: http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/make/download.html?brand=CHKZ Which is like Internet Explorer only better and faster And then I installed google translate: http://translate.google.com/support/ There's a couple more steps after that, I can help you if you want.

This has been a very interesting thread to read... I do have a few questions/comments. First, some of the quality/craftsmanship/beauty of things in some of the posted links is incredible to me. Take for example the thread posted by Jake earlier: http://forum.ostmetal.info/showthread.php?t=220649 Second, does anyone know where to find some of these "Rules without number" that have been "rehearsed through countless printed pages on the subject of design"? that Googerty refers to on page 23 of his book? Most Blacksmith books I have read tell much more about process than design, and so reading some of this material on designing hand forged ironwork would be really interesting. As to an interest in the "old" arts and crafts and the apparent lack of interest of most of the younger people (i.e., my age), here are a few thoughts. I think different things can attract different people to the same things; I was attracted to blacksmithing partially because it is making something, and partly because of the "feel" or "aesthetic" to it... it's hard to explain. Do you think all those young people (and not so young people) who love Lord of the Rings love it solely because of the action, exotic creatures, and use of magic? I would say they certainly do not. There is a "realism," a "feel" or "aesthetic" to it that just makes you want... something. I'm not sure what it makes you want. Maybe to live in a middle-earth type environment? Blacksmithing was a way for me to pursue that sort of aesthetic in a concrete way - though I have since begun enjoying it for other reasons. When most people (boys anyway) want to pursue it in a concrete way, the first item they think of is a sword; it is rightfully set apart as a weapon of days gone by, which required strength, skill, and courage to use. And it is very romanticized. So they decide to go online to find out how to make one.... well, you know what happens from there. Most young people, I think, end up pursuing that aesthetic in the world of video games; for me, that was very unsatisfying. But it is hard to pursue in the real world; experiences tend to not be as immersive. Case in point - I went to an SCA meeting hoping to hang out in a medieval atmosphere. It didn't feel like a medieval atmosphere, it felt like a bunch of nerds walking around in costumes. I guess there were too many anachronisms... Just a few of my thoughts - take it for what it's worth. By the way, when it comes to pages in foreign languages, it's not a problem if you can find someone who is tech savvy enough to set up auto translate. (I'm 20, so I did it for my computer to translate the pages from russian to english ) Beth - the section you referred to is titled "virtual reconstructions of artifacts." Also, did you see the celtic items? They are mostly mirrors, but still really cool looking. http://domongol.su/gallery/album.php?id=144

Brazil - You should check out the tillers international website: http://www.tillersinternational.org/ It looks like it's similar to what you're looking at doing.

Except for the lettering, that Thompson blower looks basically identical to my canedy otto.

As the torch is a somewhat ubiquitous portable light source in the medieval time period, and I know I have seen torches made of metal, I was curious if any of you have ever forged one, or if anyone happens to have information on how they were made. I made a torch once, wrapping cotton around a long piece of wood, stapling it in place, and soaking in kerosene. It worked pretty well, though it only burned for about half an hour. Also it was not very re-usable. So in the construction of metal torches, how is the part to be burned held in? Is there sometimes a container for holding extra fluid to be wicked up into the flame? I have some black iron pipe, which I was thinking might be a good starting place for making one of these....