ofafeather

Thanks Mr. Turley, lots of new useful information there for all of us.

My thanks, too, Frank! Great post.

Called "drop the tongs" because it is what it sounds like. You position, drop the tongs from the hammer hand and use the hammer. Practice on cold till you stop feeling silly, and start feeling silly again. Some say you can press a weld with a stick to set, then back to the fire. I agree, but have a hard time welding due to lack of experience, and not nearly enough forge time.

Phil

Ahhh yes. Seems I had 'heard' that expression on the forum. Now it makes sense.

ofafeather;

Do yourself a HUGE favor and get a can of either E-Z Weld or Crescent "anti borax" flux.

I had been using borax and getting good results, then tried E-Z Weld when welding thin stock to thick and had GREAT results.

Since both were formulated for use in gas forges, you can weld at a lower heat so you're not on the ragged edge of burning your steel. You can "stick" the workpieces in the fire so be careful about alignment. (don't ask how I know )

I'll look into that. Thanks!

Do forge welded items show a seem?

Tongs shouldn't weigh much for the average job done by a hand hammer.

I guess I was exaggerating a bit when I said 5 lbs. I think all of my tongs are in a reasonable size/weight range. Nothing for extra heavy work.

I have handled some of Grant's OC tongs, which are light and strong - but some of the Wolf Jaw sizes are too bulky for me.

I think Grant's tongs are great. Being new to this I went for the OC brand based on recommendations here. I also really appreciate the fact that Grant is a member of IFI. Now having personal experience of some of Grant's tools I can add my own personal recommendation.

I have 3 different sizes/styles. The 1/4" V-Bolt ones are a dream because they are so light. The others are a wolf jaw that he makes and an 1/2" (or 5/8", can't remember) gooseneck v-bolt. I like this style a lot. The offset lets you hold stock well past the end and still have the tongs parallel to the stock. One problem that I have is that I don't have anything specifically for 3/8". The wolf-jaw does pretty well with this but, to me with my experience level, not as well as a dedicated 3/8" would do in one of the other styles.

I also always use a ring on the tong handles so my holding hand is simply manipulating the tongs - not holding the reins closed. This makes for much less overall fatigue at the end of the day.

That's good to know. I have used them a bit with the 1/4" but they kept sliding down. Guess I was squeezing a bit and the reins on the 1/4" flex a bit.

If producing anything repetitive, I will also make tongs to specifically fit the work; often two or more sets are required for certain jobs. For example, I used to make a lot of J and S hooks and had three pairs of tongs so I could always have rods in the gas forge.

I'm not quite up to making tongs yet, I don't think. I would like to, though.

Can you leave the tongs in the forge, or is that bad? I've been avoiding that because I wasn't sure. That would certainly help when working with smaller pieces, though. One part of my frustration comes from trying to grip smaller things once they are in the forge. (I use a gas forge) Smaller items need to be repositioned a lot before they can be gripped. A coal forge is easier that way, having full access at different angles.

In a pinch, plain jaw Vise-Grips will work on some types of odd forms such as tapers, although as already mentioned, they tend to squirt out while being hammered.

I have a pair here somewhere.

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it. All good things to keep in mind.

A small adjustment just to the reins can be done cold. Put a piece of stock in the jaws and clamp the jaws together tightly in a vise. Then adjust a little.

Thanks, Grant. Will do that.

Practice.

Experience always helps and I am getting better with time but I was hoping for a little guidance from the more experienced folks.

You think using tong is frustrating, try doing it without tongs!

Yeah, part of the frustration is that I can just picture how simple it would be if I could just use my hands instead of these 5lb chopsticks. Ever watch people eating with chopsticks for the first time?

Don't grab tapers. Find a way to work around it. Think about for a minute. What is happening when you try to grab the taper. It is trying to squirt out of the tong jaws.

There are a few ways of dealing with this problem when making S-hooks.

1. Make the hook first, then grab the hook with a different type of tongs. The plane of the hook will resist rotation.

2. Use bolt tongs and let the hook poke out of the open part behind the bits like it shows on the gstongs www page.

If you must grab a taper, leave a nubbin, and forge or grind it out later. Do not do a "death grip" on the tongs. The resulting overuse injury can be worse than a burn or an abrasion to an ungloved hand.

Thanks for the pointers here. My main tongs all are similar to the bolt tongs in that they have the open part behind the bits. This comes in really handy. I might try more flat tongs on the hook as opposed to square/diamond ones. I have a hard time keeping the stock in the plane I want it to be in sometimes with the v-groove tongs.

I don't remove "excess" flux, some people do.

Generally there is not enough time to rig a hold down and it's time to borrow help if you would need one.

Of course if your flat piece is 12" thick then there probably is enough time! (or to put it otherwise "it depends")

Preheating the tooling seems to help particularly in the winter

Thanks for the input, again. Guess I'll have to wait for the wife to help me forge weld separate pieces (except when I'm working on that 12" thick stock!

One thing worth mentioning about the preheating of tooling: DO NOT heat excessively!! You could possibly ruin the tempering/hardness of an anvil, etc. (basically don't get it too hot to touch).

Good point. Will be careful of that.

Thanks guys, I like it when someone asks a question I need to know the answer to.

Happy to oblige! ;)

Hi, All. After getting a taste of smithing in the Fall, I finally have a small smithy set up at home. I've been forging for a few hours a day for about a week now. One of the things that I sometimes find frustrating is using tongs. I have a few pair of decent tongs (Grant's OC brand 1/4" V Bit, 1/2" Gooseneck V-bit and Wolf Jaw to cover the rest in the smaller sizes). I also picked up a box of older tongs in assorted shapes and sizes.

Grant's tongs are great. They really hold well with the square stock that I'm using. My biggest trouble seems to be after the shape changes a bit. The end is dressed in a taper, or ribbon and getting a good grip on the material can be a challenge. Maybe there's a bend for a hook, and I want to work on the other end, etc.

Any suggestions?

Also, Grant, if you read this, I need to adjust the 1/4" tongs. They reins are too close together now. What's the best way to do that? Thanks.~Eric

Also, when you first start learning to forge weld, make sure that you TAP the weld together. DO NOT HIT IT!!. If you hit it too hard, you will blow out all of the molten metal and it won't take. When I first learned to forge weld, I had an old timer tell me to use the smallest hammer that I had. That way it's easier to just tap it lightly. Like Thomas said, if it is brought to weld heat more than once, it should just make your weld stronger by making sure that it is bonded well. All that I use for flux is plain ole 20 Mule Team Borax.

Thanks, George. Just saw your post when I was replying to Thomas's. I think I will practice some forge welding soon so I'm happy for the input.

Yes and Yes. In fact the more a piece is worked at welding temp the stronger the weld should get! It's not like soldering or brazing where the material between the pieces can re-melt and let them slide. The two (or more) pieces are now *one*!

Thanks. That's what I thought.

In general is my understanding of forge welding correct (below)?

When preparing to weld you heat the pieces to be welded, brush them to remove scale, put the flux on and heat to welding temperature. Remove the pieces when they are at temp, do a quick brush to remove excess flux then mate the pieces starting with light to medium blows getting heavier as the stock cools.

If I am uses separate pieces of stock, say mounting a hook to a piece of flat stock, would I have enough time to use a hold down on the larger piece? Do I need to heat the anvil a bit in order to give myself more time to position the stock? Is there some other way of holding the items to be joined?

Hi, All. I have never forge welded before and have a couple of questions. First, can you use straight borax for a flux on mild steel? Second, if you successfully complete a weld and bring the stock up to welding temperature again does (should)that first weld hold? i.e. welding a series of smaller pieces onto a larger piece.

Thanks.

Eric

Thanks, guys. I have already made me another pair, and I use them all the time. Grant, you've got to make some of these for the market out there!

I love those tongs and........

http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/Templates/cart_templates/cart-detail.php?theLocation=/Resources/Products/Tongs_and_Pliers/OC_Universal_V-bit

there are some there!


alec

Grant knows his market!

Interesting discussion and I think that the perception on both sides is correct: Unions are necessary and can be a positive force for both the labor and the company as a whole. Unions can also be obstructionist and misguided, even corrupt. There are cases for both statements. Unions can protect workers in the case of unethical management but the unions themselves need to be ethical. Unions should be about setting, applying and maintaining fair standards for safety, pay, time worked, etc. Sometimes these elements get lost in rhetoric. Bad workers get protected sometimes, even though that's not in anyone's interests. Also, since the union's job is to look after the good of the workers they often fail to see how they affect the health of the company they work. These are complicated issues and can't be decided based on one incident. Union's might not be as necessary as they were, but they are still quite important. There are still plenty of people waiting to take advantage of workers who have no recourse.

I don't know- forging on the lawn may be a little hard (or soft). The grass will catch fire and the material may not move the way it would on an anvil

I work on a concrete floor---standing on a lawn all day forging would be a dream

That was great! Right now we have an open lean-to so it has a roof, no walls. We have the remnants from an old shelter that collapsed so have the tarp/door section going right across the back of the lean-to. It's great because it has a zipper on both sides so you can roll the door open. I have another just like it that we'll put on the front and we may tarp in the sides, at least temporarily, to get some weather protection. I don't plan on forging there with the tarps down but need to at least provide protection for the equipment. I think that some point we'll put more permanent walls up.

Sounds great! That's what we'll do. Can't wait!

Hi, All. My wife and I built a lean-to smithy in the fall and never really had the chance to use it before the weather turned. Now that the nice weather is here we would like to get it going. The question at the moment is what to do with the floor. It's grass. Can we leave it and work that way? Is the grass a fire hazard? Will the anvil lose some of its effectiveness? (I can always sink a post or stump for that). We are considering digging out the sod at some point and putting in crushed stone but are wondering if it's necessary. Any ideas? Thanks.~Eric

try the other side of the hudson (Kingston) I went through some used shops last year and there were some for sale about $75.00 to big to take on the plane or ship home for me

I'll have to check that out. You don't happen to remember where you went?

I can't tell you what a great place this forum is for learning new things, sharing information and just a general sense of community, especially for a newbie smith. The amount I have learned here over the past few months is fantastic. I never even thought about angle grinders before digging in to this thread. Some great food for thought in application, types of grinders and safety, too. Thanks, all for your contributions.~Eric

Hi Frosty-Great idea-I think I'll start on that. On another note, it's great to see your name on posts again. We've all been concerned about you. I hope your recovery is going well ( and quickly). Wishing you and your wife all the best. Cheers, Mark Emig

X2! Welcome back, Frosty.

Anyone use a cordless grinder? I've heard good things about the new Ryobi line of cordless tools. They are inexpensive but seem to perform well. Also you buy a drill or similar tool with a set of batteries then interchange them with all of the other tools. I had gotten a really good deal on a Milwaukee 18V cordless Sawzall but it only came with one battery and the batteries are around $70. It's a great tool, but only when it has power ;)

Brian, that's really interesting. Thanks for sharing. Can you tell me about your table? That looks really handy.

That's interesting. The other effect would be to create more of a slicing (shearing) cut which should be easier. The highest point of the crown is the only part that's chopping.. All of the other parts are entering at an angle to the material and are slicing. I'm not at all experience in metalworking but I know from woodworking that when you skew a bladed tool (even a straight bladed to) you get a slicing cut instead of a chopping cut which is usually cleaner, especially on end grain. Also the resistance drops dramatically. The few hardies I have seen in my vast experience (I've been to one hammer-in ) have all been straight.

Would you do the same for cold chisels, too?

Try chopping with an axe that is sharpened straight across.

Yeah, but with an axe doesn't that have to do with the pendulum aspect of the stroke? Carpenter's axes and splitting axes tend to be straight across. Gransofr Bruks Carpenter's Axe When someone starts swinging the hot cut hardy, it's time to leave.

Why are curved chisels/hardies better if they aren't being swung?

That one wasn't my idea. Alfred Habermann had me make him 2 to take to Japan with him so he could cut down on weight. It actually seems to be more stable than most standard hardy tools and easier to fit. I don't see any reason that you couldn't adapt it to other hardy tools, but I have never made any other hardy tools like that.

Nothing compares to the other hot cuts in the first picture for stability, but I would not use the tapered shank for other hardy tools used for forging because you might brake your heel off.

Brian, why would a tapered shank cause the heel to break? Thanks for the ideas.

Brian, it's really amazing how a small change in thinking can make a huge difference. I never thought of making a hardy tool to fit the hardy hole on a bias. It makes a huge difference in what's needed to secure the tool. Do you notice any difference in stability compare with a full square shaft? Have you adapted this for other hardy tools?

Never used a wickless one but I have used both glass and steel wick lamps when doing musical instrument repair. Side note-thingmaker3, I live in Columbia County, too, only in NY. :)