John B Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 We had a toolmaking course this weekend, Saturday covering basic heat treating methods, and using old farriers rasps and coil springs to make hot cuts, straight and curved, and punches etc, and also heat treating for cold use tools. Then on Sunday the making of a simple hammer and how the sequence of forging is done, and how to make a heart touchmark The group then went on to make scrolling tongs from coil springs, and converted a couple of hammer heads from lump hammers to cross and straight pein Hopefully others from this site who attended will post pics as I didn't get many here is a few I managed to get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomN Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Wow, Beth's tongs are fantastic! I only got a few photo's sadly. This was another great course that I learned a lot on. I'd thoroughly recommend them for beginners and experienced smiths, as John really does work flexibly and towards what people want to learn. Photo time. We use spring steel to make some punches. Theres the spring in the fire. Followed by a piece of it which was then heated up and straightened out. We then hardened and tempered the punches. Heres a photo of my punch, and a hole punched through some mild steel. The second day we watched John make a hammer head, as someone wanted to know the techniques. Here is John filing one of the heads of the roughly shaped hammer. Here is John and Norman slitting the handle hole into the hammer head, which was later widened with a drift. Later on we made some scrolling tongs out of a spring again. Here are 2 images of my tong handles. One is with an existing pair to see if they were near the right shape and the second photo shows both together. I had a little trouble punching the holes and finaly got the rivet in. When trying to tweak them to shape I accidentaly left them in the fire too long and burnt a small section off of one of the tong heads. I ran out of time to finish them off and tweak them, but will do it when I get my forge setup. Heres the image of the 'finished' tongs. Thanks again John! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 hey tom - thanks for the compliment, but i DDDDare not tell you how much help i had orienting the tongs the right way , my brain struggles Utterly with that side of things!!! yours may be burned but theyre still usable in your workshop - and its concrete learning , which is the best type i agree with your rec for the courses - the flexibility is a godsend, you learn so much more by being 'allowed 'off on a tangent :)was very nice to meet you - stay in touch, maybe we can car share if we do same courses again? ill def be on the forge welding.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomN Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Was nice to meet you too. Shame I ended up next door on the other forges. A forge welding course would be usefull for me and yes we can definately car share, or collaborate in the future! I never realised you heart stamped the rivet on your tongs. Genius! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Good going you guys,congratulations on yet another successfull training session! Thanks for all the photos,great to see the shop,and the people that one talks with,in (almost)real life! I'll examine the pictures minutely,see if i may not be missing something that i need to learn to work like you do there. A good friend in the Old Country told me that while apprenticing in a machine shop at the Tula gun works he used to get his ears boxed,for screeching with his file,and the like. I'm also the kind of a student that needs similar teaching methods applied to him periodically.Now that i see John in the photos i'm glad to see that he's of a right size and shape to be,probably,quite good at boxing one's ears.I need to see what it would take to somehow finagle a trip to England,for continuing my blacksmithing education... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 come on jakey do it!!! id love to see john box yr ears.. ! too good... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthor Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 i did exackly the same thing to my tongs, had to hot cut the tip off to stop any craking then forge them out agen Argghh! i'll post some photos tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 arthor! cromer as in uk?? hi either way - you look (if thats your picture) spookily similar to my friend humph -( is it you humph??) JOHN - the tong info - it went in pretty much, just kept going towrds the wall i made a foolish mistake making the hole for rivet, did not offer first hole up to second piece and i should of cos i knew they were a bit different... anyway so they wont fit together well, but i will get the grinder to that bit and that will be ok. will know next time. they are not as Beautiful as i would dream of and you Can see the hammer marks, and i will polish them up a bit smoother, but for educational purposes, i show you them RAW so you can advise for Next Time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthor Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 no its not me, it was my facebook pic and now i cant seem to be able to change it! i was there on sat and sunday on the course wearing camo trousers and hat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Beth, They don't look too bad, Will serve as a good example 'cos you know where you went wrong, and what not to do next time. A flatter will put the mating faces right, No harm in running a drill through the holes to get them the same dia. for the rivet. And then assemble and adjust/grind/fit before rivetting, Cut the rod/bar for the rivet the total width of the two jaws that fit together, then add on three times(or a bit more) the diameter of the rivet stock you are using to give you the material for rivetting. Use a snap underneath and your heart on top. Good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 thanks john, ye si will do that. when i do step one, do i want to make the tong end the same width as the daddy bar or let it get wider, and why when i put them together is there still a largeish gap, which step was awry?? appologies if you actualy answered that already , i sometimes dont take in the information clearly.. Arthor - im so sorry! hello, you were the one out with tom and the balkan man? you had a stud in your lip? but if you will put a picture up of my friend humph then i can be forgiven for not recognising you.... your comment now makes sense - thought it was a bit of a random thread for a newcomer to be interested in!! hopefully see you again on another weekend :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 also john, the diameter are different Becasue, i did not use a bolster plate ( at least i know what it is now ) and i had to barge right through with my punch on one of them to get it out what a silly girl! will have to make one. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Looks like I missed a really good weekend. I LOVE love love the heart rivet tool... (WANT ONE!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomN Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 The weekend obviously inspire you Beth. Those tongs look very nice indeed. Can't wait to have a go at making some of my own soon. Arthor was indeed the chap with the ring in his lip. We went to a pub and had a few ales together on Saturday night. One of the several reasons why I was out like a light when I got into bed at 10pm that night. Nice to see you got on here Arthor. Hope your drive home was alright! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 thanks john, ye si will do that. when i do step one, do i want to make the tong end the same width as the daddy bar or let it get wider, and why when i put them together is there still a largeish gap, which step was awry?? appologies if you actualy answered that already , i sometimes dont take in the information clearly.. Hi Beth, lets try and sort this, Back to basics. The method used is a standard way to make tongs, (what alters when making tongs is the first end mark lengths which are used eventually to form the jaw shape to grip whatever you are going to hold in the finished tongs.) The pair you are making are flat bit tongs, no grooves. V's or other shapes to be put in. (These would be done prior to rivetting together normally.) Just a flat jaw First its not a largish gap, you have there, its an overlap. In the working position when the tongs are rivetted the hinge parts fit flush, so this will throw the outer edges out of line. I try to keep away from specific measurements, but in this case I'll put some figures in. Material used 16mm square stock x 8" long. The jaw and reins section want to finish no less than half the thickness of the material, in this case 8mm (Jaws can be thinner, but hinge and rein section should be at least half thickness of original stock size for best strength) From the near side of the anvil to your first mark, half and half blows to set end down to approx half width of stock, End section will spread slightly wider than original as you can see, then you can forge it back to the stock bar width so you just have a step in the bar Turn it to the wall (Left) and over the far side of the anvil at 45 degrees and using the half on half off blow set this shoulder down to leave slightly over half of the original width, final sizing will be done later. Turn it to the wall (Left) again and up to your next mark, but square on to the anvil this time, half and half blows and set down for the reins, again leaving just above half thickness of stock size to be dressed down later You can punch your rivet hole in now or leave it until you have drawn your parts to finished sizes, I put the holes in here to economise on the heats I need to use. Then rough out your reins Then finish forge, punch your hole if you haven't already done so, flatter the hinge to reins transition area, you can use a drift to size the rivet hole, (on your bolster plate) and try the pair together, file to fit if necessary, Rivet together and adjust as required. Has that sorted it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 thanks john your instructions were , and Are clear as day so does that mean they Should overlap when the hinge part is flush? i am getting there colleen glad you appreciate my personal tough - would have been great if you had been there - a very educational weekend ! hope all is good with you :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 No, They should be in line when rivetted, yours will have an off set on each side, Nothing that an angle grinder and a cutting disc won't cure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 also john, the diameter are different Becasue, i did not use a bolster plate ( at least i know what it is now ) and i had to barge right through with my punch on one of them to get it out what a silly girl! will have to make one. They are different because you did not go in the same depth/through with the punch on both parts, the bolster only supports them whilst they are being punched, you are not supposed to use them as a depth stop. When you get punching right, you should punch out a slug like when I did the eye on the hammer head, and not have to resort to the bolster plate, unless you are going to drift through , then you will need a bolster of the appropriate size. Reminder to what we said on the course, start the punch hole with the jaw over the edge of the anvil and the hinge area on the face, and punch until the resistance is felt, then flip it over and punch through from the other side as the workpiece will then sit flat on the anvil and allow the slug to shear off neatly, the punch and the polished/dark spot must be in line for the second stage on the anvil for a clean cut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 mmm sorry john ... still not sure why mine are not in line then.... will certainly grind them off, but need to know how to prevent that, even my silly ones i got off you tube did that... am now on the hard stuff and thus not concentrating, but i will look on here again tomo - thanks for your help john. yes i remembered which way round to punch first was very pleased with myself!! i did punch out a slug, but it got stuck to the bottom like it always does , what with me always doing it wrong in the same manner!! over and out, my brain aint working......................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Nice clear pictures John. Thanks. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 mmm sorry john ... still not sure why mine are not in line then.... will certainly grind them off, but need to know how to prevent that, even my silly ones i got off you tube did that... am now on the hard stuff and thus not concentrating, but i will look on here again tomo - thanks for your help john. yes i remembered which way round to punch first was very pleased with myself!! i did punch out a slug, but it got stuck to the bottom like it always does , what with me always doing it wrong in the same manner!! over and out, my brain aint working......................... Good morning Beth, I hope you slept well and have a clear head, it will be so obvious when the penny drops, so here we go. They are not in line because the reins/hinge area is less than half of the width of the forged jaw. So, when you put them together, this discrepancy is doubled as the excess hangs out at each side On the ones you have if you have not rivetted them yet, If you just offer them up with a rivet in place to position them, and place the jaws in line, you have a gap in the middle between the reins/hinge area. Now, press the hinges together, and the edges of the jaws become mis aligned (by the distance of the gap you previously had) Any clearer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomN Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Thanks for that description John. I was next door and catching up, so missed a few of these useful tips. Some flat tongs are on my 'too make' list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 yeah thanks john. slow and steady wins the race.....? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 What race would that be? I don't do races, I'm saving energy, mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 :) i use too much energy, mine ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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