Paul Kin Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 I cant find a definitive thread on this so I thought, why not start one!? So, as the title states, what size forge can what size T burner “handle”? I know the 3/4” burner to 350 cu/in. But what about the 1/2” and the 1”? Ive read somewhere the a 1/2” burner can efficiently heat 150 cu/in? And the 1” I havent really looked into but would be good to have though! Also is there ways we can make the forges more efficient? Like the kiln wash, better insulation, other things? I just thought the burner to cu/in and how to make it efficient would be nice to have in 1 easy to find thread. Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 IT IS. The calculation is easy and is prominently presented in that section of the burner directions posted on Iforge. Hundreds of posts related to different ways to build forges are discussed in depth in Forges 101. The reason not to start a thread about burner size to forge volume AND ANOTHER REPEAT THREAD about forge construction is it shows that YOU can't be bothered to do a little reading of your own. Following your displayed logic, NO I'm not going to fly down build and tune a burner for you and the forge to go with it. Do I sound grumpy? Gosh, the first post I open this morning as from another person too lazy to even LOOK. After this little display you better do your homework but good before expecting anything from me. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kin Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 I see. Thanks Frosty. I do understand. I have locals asking me lots of these questions as well because I have forges so I apparently should be the “expert”... even though I explain over and over that I have no idea what Im doing. I simply followed instructions and they worked! Woohoo! I had a guy telling me hes making a 3/4” burner for his nearly 1000 cu/in foundry and asked if it will work. I said no and he should look it up on the forums and he just said “ahhh its just to melt copper, itll be fine.“ All I could respond with was “ok”. I dont want to tell anyone what is or isnt safe, as I really dont know. What Ive done works good but I cant go telling people “ok do this”. I have browsed through the stickies. It takes me 1-2 days to go through each page of each thread. However, my last couple forges were built following those threads and they work great! So I do understand your anger now that I really think about it so I will push no further. And I sincerely apologize Frosty. I really did not mean to ruin your day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Have you read about how to do the most effective IFI search in this thread Read This First ? It's located up in the blue banner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kin Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 I have yes. Thats how I search. Apparently Im just no good at keywords/terms... but its all good. I will find what I need eventually! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 I'm the one who needs to apologize Paul. I should've waited till I had breakfast or before replying, sometimes I'm not in a very pleasant mood early. Worse I've read through the build directions several times now and the output to size info isn't there. My bad, I've put it on the list of things I need to revise. You have my sincere apologies. I was wrong. Burner output depends on the cross section area of the mixing tube. A 3/4" mixing tube has an area of 0.4418" sq" and will bring 300 - 350 cu/in to welding temp. A 1" tube has an area of 0.7854 sq" and has roughly 2x the output. And a 1/2" tube is 0.196 sq" and is good for about 150 -175 cu" or 1/2 the output of a 3/4 burner. Jet diameter follows the same relationship to the area of the cross section. All the above ratios are rounded off, nobody needs that many decimal places. Also, the larger the diameter the more capacity it has as the area increases geometrically but the circumference arithmetically. The larger the tube the less the skin friction per volume passing so it carries more at a lower velocity. Let me know if that isn't clear enough. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kin Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 Ahh your talking about your T-burner plans!? I have gone over those plans many many times and referenced them to other people as well. But no, you were right. I did not go through forges 101 or burners 101 again before posting this. And I should have. I would have still posted this however, just with more info on the subject from me! So I accept your apology if you accept mine! I probably could have found this info if I had searched a little harder. But your explanation is very clear I believe. And it actually explains a question I had, which I will go over now for others sakes. On a quick glance, 2 half inch burners should heat the same volume forge as 1 one inch burner. But in reality they will only heat what one 3/4” burner can, and probably be harder on fuel as most people seem to use the .023 mig tips in the 1/2” burners. This is all due to 2 things, #1, 1/2”+1/2” does not in this case equal 1”. They actually each have slightly less then half the volume of a 3/4” burner. And then theres #2, friction. And I only just realized this right now! But it makes sense. Theres a lot more friction in two 1/2” tubes then there is in a single 3/4” tube. This is how I personally understand it. Its a little more crude then Frosty’s explanation but its a little more along the lines of how my brain works. Hopefully this helps others that may think more like myself. Also, if Im way off here, please correct me! Side note, I know my use of then and than are very much incorrect! Grammar is not my strong suit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Paul Kin said: This is all due to 2 things, #1, 1/2”+1/2” does not in this case equal 1”. They actually each have slightly less then half the volume of a 3/4” burner. And then theres #2, friction. And I only just realized this right now! But it makes sense. Theres a lot more friction in two 1/2” tubes then there is in a single 3/4” tube. That's close enough. What I call a working handle. 1/2" burners have a faster flame and tend to run a little hotter so two of them indeed heat as much volume as a 3/4". I figure 1/100 give or take a couple thou. cross section area is close enough to call them 1/2 the output of a 3/4. And a 3/4" is close enough to 1/2 the area of a 1" to just call it. People tend to get really involved looking for exact numbers and calculations, they're out there but I'm not set up to need that level precision. I designed the T burner specifically to bypass more than very basic shop tools and skills. Many designs are more efficient but the level of precision goes up too. Mike's burners are hotter but take more shop skills to get right. I've added making a size to output and forge volume chart and explanation on my to do list. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kin Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 This is perfect. I know its not always best to have this info so easy to find because people tend to skip steps In planning that way, but its also nice when your in the shop and get stuck on something to be able to find info easily. Mikeys burners are the next step for me but you guys wont hear about it. I have enough understanding on how things should work that Im confident I can do it. But the burner size to cu/in has been a little vague to me. Now that Ive built and used several forges, I know almost exactly what I need. And I would like to plan for maximum efficiency. My current forge (that I just sold) was getting 6-10 hours a week use and a 100 lb tank of propane lasted just about 2 months. But I almost never need a forge that big. Now that I have a clear idea on burner size to volume, I can start my next build! Thanks Frosty! And I really am sorry that I didnt do some more digging. Trust me, I know better for next time now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 I can't fault a guy for not finding what wasn't where it should've been and digging through thousands of posts for a basic piece of info isn't too reasonable either. You're welcome and I'd like to thank you for pointing out a way to improve my burner directions. It's a win win. Don't be a stranger, we LOVE pics and what you build will be educational for others. Even if it turns out to be a "don't do it this way" lesson, I post my fails so folks don't make the same mistakes. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kin Posted July 6, 2020 Author Share Posted July 6, 2020 Awesome! I use those plans occasionally still, though I can build the T burner off memory now, I still check them out to refresh. I have built and sold a few forges now and am pretty close to knowing exactly what I need. Im not making money really, but I am recovering my cost. Im just trying to get the perfect forge for my work and in doing so help get some of the locals into it as cheap as possible . So far everyone has been happy! Its surprising how many people are getting into it locally! I could probably actually make a decent wage doing it if I really wanted to get into it. But this works just fine for me. Its like free research! I wish I was better at remembering to take pictures... Its just been so busy I often forget to stop and take any. When I get out to the shop and start working, my phone no longer exists haha! I will try really hard to take pictures of my next build though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 Okay, first draft of burner size output and forge volume ratios is written and sent to Steve, we'll get it cleaned up and posted soon. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kin Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 Great! That will be a nice extra bit of info. I was just discussing forge/burner size with a friend that wants to get into it last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 It's posted in the thread you started. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Kin Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 Yes sorry! Should have been more clear, I wasnt asking anything, just pointlessly stating a useless fact for some reason.. I do that sometimes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 No, you were right, it's a useful bit of info I can link instead of repeating. I'm glad you brought it up in the first place. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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