Anyone Cast an Anvil?

[bajajoaquin]

OP: I want to cast my own ASO.
Me: Unless you're already set up with all you'd need to cast an ASO**, it'd be cheaper to buy one.
baja: Even if you're already set up with everything you'd need to cast an ASO, actually doing so would cost more than buying a Nimba.
me: Really think so? Nimbas are pretty expensive!
baja: Yeah.

That's a fair summary (although considerably more brief than I'm likely to be! )

**And by "set up with all you'd need to cast an ASO," I meant, roughly, that you already own a cupola capable of melting ~300 pounds of cast iron in one shot, you have all you need to get all that iron into your mold in pretty short order, you already have enough green or oil sand to make a mold that size, you know something about pattern making, etc., etc.

I guess that's the crux of it. Even though I agreed to the stipulation, I don't see someone who is asking some basic construction questions just having that kind of setup laying around. I was also looking at casting in steel. I know that's not the question you were answering, so don't take my comments the wrong way.

At UCSD, they have an iron pour once a quarter or so, and it's a big freakin' deal. It's a huge production, with lots of people involved. And then, they pour less than 50 lb.

But even so: if you have all the green sand, all the fuel, all the materials "just laying around" presumably you have them for a reason. If you use them up for this project, you'll just have to replace them for your next one. So they're not free. If you had all the infrastructure laying around, from the furnace, to the crucibles, to the molds, to the heat treating capability, to the time, to the experience, then yes. You could make anvils cheaper than buying a Nimba.

But then again, you all ready would be casting them. Or something else equivalent.

[MattBower]

I guess that's the crux of it. Even though I agreed to the stipulation, I don't see someone who is asking some basic construction questions just having that kind of setup laying around.

Fair enough. In retrospect, what I should have said is, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it." :)

[MattBower]

My take on the OP was that he could only find ASO's and wanted to cast a "real one".By "old fashion way" I assumed he meant a quality item, not an ASO.

Ah, I see. That makes all the difference!

[njanvilman]

"Is the Fisher process still in patent?"



I have been researching how Fisher anvils were made for 12 years now, and think I have it mostly explained. It will be in my book eventually.

When Fisher/Crossley was forced to stop making anvils in 1979, they searched for a foundry that could duplicate the process. Their search was unsucessful. So no more Fisher/Crossley anvils made after Dec. 1979, although I was given a 50 lb anvil from the last pour that was also the last anvil to leave the factory(in 1999).

[Dodge]

This site does not talk about casting an anvil. But it does have estimate in cost.

Easy Anvil Making

What about casting a smaller anvil? Maybe 50 lb. and Why cast iron?

Not sure if the OP's specific goal is a "cast" iron or steel end product or simply the pride in having something that he made himself. However, the anvil in the link isn't exactly "easy" as the link title suggests. Don't ask me how I know

and I didn't hard face mine...
That being said, an anvil cut from heavy plate is an option that can yield a very serviceable product! Of course, again, it not something everyone has the resources to do unless one is willing to pay the cost.

[MattBower]

That being said, an anvil cut from heavy plate is an option that can yield a very serviceable product! Of course, again, it not something everyone has the resources to do unless one is willing to pay the cost.

All kidding aside, for the sake of the OP this really does bear saying. Just about any big, heavy chunk of of steel can make a serviceable anvil. A hard face is a good thing, but it isn't absolutely mandatory. And an anvil doesn't have to look like a London pattern to get the job done. A heck of a lot of incredible blacksmithing was done on anvils that didn't look much like the things we call anvils today. If all you want is a serviceable anvil without spending a ton of money, there are probably hundreds of ways to skin that cat, from simple to very elaborate.

[Woodlife]

My original intent was to see if this was an idea worth trying. My judgement now would be to go ahead and wait a few years. This project seems to take several men to do. I do however think that a small scale forged Anvil will be on my to build list, and a large Anvil will be on my bucket list.

My plan is on build up the materials by building up blooms, then converting to ingots and when I feel I have enough, I should have a general idea of my next move. Possibly building a foundry next. 300lb seems a little on the heavy scale. I'm looking more towards a 150-200lb with a mild steel face. But things are subject to change from not til then. Thanks for all of your input, and well planned answers.

[MattBower]

Since you haven't been deterred from the casting idea, I'd point out that you need to allow extra metal for the sprue, risers, gating, etc. If you want a 200 pound anvil, you're going to need to pour a good bit more than 200 pounds of iron.

However, I suspect that once you build a small foundry and get a sense of what would be involved in your plan, you'll change you mind about a cast anvil.

Why would you want a mild steel face, by the way? If you're going to try to weld on a steel face, why not go ahead and use hardenable steel?

[Jymm Hoffman]

Forgive me if I over looked some comments as I was just skimming.

The good all steel anvils today are made that way (using all steel) because the cost of the material vs. labor and skill required to cast a steel plate into the anvil as F&N did. Plus the cost of good quality steel vs. lesser expensive materials, i.e. iron, are close enough to cause serious manufacturers to not want to make an inferior product. That is why the anvils I have cast are entirely H13 tool steel, then professionally heat treated and ground. Same for Nimba (different kind of tool steel) Rathole and even some of the European imports using better steel than cast iron. I don't know enough of the metallurgy to discuss or debate the American made anvils that are made from ductile iron that many farriers buy and use. The manufacturers of these anvils claim a pretty high hardness on the Rockwell C scale.

If anyone could do it easily, there would be a lot more out there.

I too have used a block anvil for years for historical demonstrations. Too many times people have asked "where's your anvil?" So when I bumped into a pattern maker that would make a "colonial" pattern for me and help me find a foundry, I was debating the change. I did not get rid of the block anvil and still use it along with the "colonial."

The pattern of a bickern Joseph has chosen I think would also be good and frequently under represented in historical demonstrations.

Grant, any more photos of those guys forging anvils?

Since many of you are interested in the "ancient" arts, I would like to share a secret, there is an old fashioned way to learn about something, it is called books. If you can not afford to buy a particular book, there is thing called a public library. Now they even take advantage of computers, so if that library does not have a copy of a book, another library will and they do inner library loans. More of you need to find a copy of Anvils in America, by Richard Postman and read it. The latest addition shows an article about making anvils that appeared in ABANA's "The Anvil's Ring" in the 1989. Anvils being made by hand at a shop producing anvils as late as the 1940's in Germany. Mr. Postman was surprised to learn this as his research was focusing on English and American made anvils that were the dominate anvils in the United States. Mr. Postman learned that most anvil makers he found still forging anvils (in the US and UK) were using steam hammers by the 20th century. He is also author of Mousehole Forge.

So depending on the size anvil you wish to make, it might be easier to build a big fire and get a big hunk of steel and some friends with sledge hammers. Sounds simple, so does melting steel and pouring into sand.

[Sask Mark]

Some guys forging an anvil in Washington state can be found here:

http://electricwallclocks.org/forgin...iron-anvil.php

[MattBower]

Dead link, Mark. Sounds cool, though, if you can find a live one.

[Sask Mark]

Dead link, Mark. Sounds cool, though, if you can find a live one.

Sorry Matt, I haven't checked the link for a while.

Here is a link to an article on it. I can't check to see if the youtube link in the article is still active since youtube is blocked on my work computer.

http://www.eatonvillenews.net/anvil2010.html

[ornametalsmith]

Here's a working link to the vid.GREAT video, IMO.

[MattBower]

I have the same problem, Mark! Can't wait to see it when I get home.

[Woodlife]

Since you haven't been deterred from the casting idea, I'd point out that you need to allow extra metal for the sprue, risers, gating, etc. If you want a 200 pound anvil, you're going to need to pour a good bit more than 200 pounds of iron.

However, I suspect that once you build a small foundry and get a sense of what would be involved in your plan, you'll change you mind about a cast anvil.

Why would you want a mild steel face, by the way? If you're going to try to weld on a steel face, why not go ahead and use hardenable steel?

I'm not good enough to control what type of steel to make. I have all of the resources to make Iron and Steel, but not experienced enough to know the formulas. No doubt I will have to learn spark tests, and by look, time and feel of heating etc. I planned on making the face the hardest part and yes weld it to the anvil. This is of course because I haven't had a trial on one yet. Maybe after my first, second, or third attempt, I will find a better solution.

Nothing better to do now but lurk the forums and absorb information like a sponge.

[bajajoaquin]

Since you haven't been deterred from the casting idea, I'd point out that you need to allow extra metal for the sprue, risers, gating, etc. If you want a 200 pound anvil, you're going to need to pour a good bit more than 200 pounds of iron.

I totally agree. That's where I was going with my off-the-cuff "300 lb" number.

If you're pouring the metal, and you run out, you have wasted that pour. So if you want to make a 200 lb anvil, you need to have extra for the sprue, risers, etc., as you said, and then you need extra "extra" to cover errors in estimation. It is cheaper to do a little more the first time than do it all over again.

However, I suspect that once you build a small foundry and get a sense of what would be involved in your plan, you'll change you mind about a cast anvil.

.....

I hope he doesn't give up. I think it would be really cool. Not cost-effective, but fantastic. And who knows? Maybe he'll get good at it, the prices of used anvils will keep rising, and he'll have a reason to go into production. My comments weren't intended to dissuade him, but to keep expectations realistic and avoid discouragement.

[MattBower]

Don't worry. By the time you're ready to make an anvil from homemade iron and steel, you'll have figured out how to control carbon content well enough. Just understand that you're probably looking at a years-long learning process. It's a very cool field, but I don't think I'd go into it saying, "I want to make an anvil," because eventually it would probably occur to me that there are far easier ways to do that. If the goal is to learn to make iron and steel, and the anvil is just a byproduct, that's different.

If you want to make your own cast iron starting from ore, you ought to look into reducing ore directly to pig iron in a blast furnace.

[MattBower]

I hope he doesn't give up. I think it would be really cool. Not cost-effective, but fantastic.

I agree: it would be fantastic. It just depends on what the point is. If the point is to learn to make iron and steel for its own sake, with the anvil as a kind of graduation exercise, I get that. But if the point is to make a good anvil for less than what it'd cost to buy one, and homemade materials are just the means to the end....fuggeddaboudit. The learning process will end up being far more costly than a brand new Refflinghaus.

[Bentiron1946]

A few years ago some to Tom Joyce's apprentices cast their own swage blocks at the Iron Pour at Mesalands Community College. They looked OK but I have often wondered how they worked out in actual use as most of my sculpture was pretty brittle and thus fragile when it came to taking even the slightest of blows. Some of them were one inch thick and still broke during the break out process. You would need a really good grade of cast iron and very controlled burn to get a good quality casting. :blink:

[MattBower]

A few years ago some to Tom Joyce's apprentices cast their own swage blocks at the Iron Pour at Mesalands Community College. They looked OK but I have often wondered how they worked out in actual use as most of my sculpture was pretty brittle and thus fragile when it came to taking even the slightest of blows. Some of them were one inch thick and still broke during the break out process. You would need a really good grade of cast iron and very controlled burn to get a good quality casting.

Yeah, I get the impression there's a lot to learn about cast iron if you plan to use it for something other than sculpture. For something like this, I think you'd want to learn a little about ductile iron and malleable iron.

[JNewman]

Yeah, I get the impression there's a lot to learn about cast iron if you plan to use it for something other than sculpture. For something like this, I think you'd want to learn a little about ductile iron and malleable iron.

The metallurgy has to be controlled tightly for ductile and then just before pouring magnesium is added to the melt. This makes the carbon form in a spherical form rather than flakes.

Typically ductile iron castings cost considerably more than grey iron. Often about 1.5 times the price, much more than that if you start getting into austempered ductile. Alloy Steel castings are often 4-5 times the cost of Grey iron castings, many foundries that do iron cannot do steel. For a heavy section STEEL casting like an anvil the risers and gating would probably be close to equal the weight of the casting. Iron castings don't need nearly as large gating and especially risers.

[Bentiron1946]

The iron we use at the pour is scrap from all over too, old radiators, bath tubs, sinks, sewer pipe, manhole covers, stair treads, Nineteenth Century farm machinery, anything that was made from cast iron, so you see in a setting like that the quality will vary greatly from good quality to pee poor. When your scrap is scrounged from all over and anywhere from ten years old to more than a hundred and ten years old there is lots of variety in the quality too. I expect that in a university setting it is somewhat similar to our selection at the community college, you are limited to donations from the communities scrap metal dealers to provide you with your supply of scrap. One year one of the fellows brought in a couple of claw foot bath tubs that he picked up on bulk trash collection runs, kept them from going to the land fill in his community. If you build your own cupola you can be of a great service to your community by keeping all the old sinks and such from being put in the land fill too, just think of all the stuff you can melt down. Why you can make mini anvils and swage blocks by the dozen. :P

[JNewman]

The iron we use at the pour is scrap from all over too, old radiators, bath tubs, sinks, sewer pipe, manhole covers, stair treads, Nineteenth Century farm machinery, anything that was made from cast iron, so you see in a setting like that the quality will vary greatly from good quality to pee poor. When your scrap is scrounged from all over and anywhere from ten years old to more than a hundred and ten years old there is lots of variety in the quality too. I expect that in a university setting it is somewhat similar to our selection at the community college, you are limited to donations from the communities scrap metal dealers to provide you with your supply of scrap. One year one of the fellows brought in a couple of claw foot bath tubs that he picked up on bulk trash collection runs, kept them from going to the land fill in his community. If you build your own cupola you can be of a great service to your community by keeping all the old sinks and such from being put in the land fill too, just think of all the stuff you can melt down. Why you can make mini anvils and swage blocks by the dozen.

Things like radiators, bath tubs, sinks and pipe are High Phoshorous Iron, which tend to be brittle.

[Woodlife]

Things like radiators, bath tubs, sinks and pipe are High Phoshorous Iron, which tend to be brittle.

Yes in a sense, but Iron is an element, and heating it slowly returns it into a pure state. With enough heat, you could molten the slag off even, which is an impur metals.

Heating it with High carbon coal changes the state yes, but what I'm talking about is much like washing your clothes. I believe that things that are high phosphorus would melt into a more solid state. It would burn off a lot of purities within the metal, thus making it stronger.

In the chemical industry we use distillation towers. You can pour raw stinky black crude oil into a huge distillation tower and heat at high temps and what will happen is that crude will seperate into different chemicals. Sulfer, Tolulene, xylene, acetone, benzene, and.. let the drums roll... COKE! but that's not all it seperates into. That's just what most Refineries try to get out. You take those chemicals and remix together and you can make gasoline, or diesel, and things like phenol which the medical industry uses. This is all because under heat, all chemicals break down into their most solid forum.

So yes you're right, but it's all based on the heat issue.

[JNewman]

Yes in a sense, but Iron is an element, and heating it slowly returns it into a pure state. With enough heat, you could molten the slag off even, which is an impur metals.

Heating it with High carbon coal changes the state yes, but what I'm talking about is much like washing your clothes. I believe that things that are high phosphorus would melt into a more solid state. It would burn off a lot of purities within the metal, thus making it stronger.

In the chemical industry we use distillation towers. You can pour raw stinky black crude oil into a huge distillation tower and heat at high temps and what will happen is that crude will seperate into different chemicals. Sulfer, Tolulene, xylene, acetone, benzene, and.. let the drums roll... COKE! but that's not all it seperates into. That's just what most Refineries try to get out. You take those chemicals and remix together and you can make gasoline, or diesel, and things like phenol which the medical industry uses. This is all because under heat, all chemicals break down into their most solid forum.

So yes you're right, but it's all based on the heat issue.

Are you suggesting that just melting the iron will refine it to pure iron? So I guess foundries and steel mills are just wasting their money on Met labs?