Giving it another shot. Look at my setup and tell me what you think

[Ross_FL]

Hey guys, about 3 years ago I tried to get a forge up and running that I could shape blades and weld with. Money was much tighter then but now fortunately it will be much more affordable for me. I work with software, so I've always felt a need to get out and do things with my hands. The one thing that I've never lost interest in is forging, so I think I need to give it another try.

Here's the wreckage from my first attempt.






Here is what I' wondering....

-The forge body is a steel bucket filled with wool and a 1" thick cast refractory shell that's about 6" inside diameter. I think I need to ditch he entire body and start over. I want my forge to be hot as hell inside, and designed for a blade. Any thoughts on this?

-That's a 3/4" T-Rex burner I have. I know that it's not enough alone, but even the $40 difference was a big deal when I bought it. Should I add a twin 3/4" or opt for the 1"? Will going with the 1" make he gas line/pressure setup more complex? Will either of these dual T-Rex setups get me the heat I want?

-Other then what's in the pics, I don't have any of the proper equipment. Any advice on finding an anvil, tongs or hammer? Also, what would you consider the most important grinding tool I need to start looking for?

I'll take any and all advice.

[maddog]

That looks like an excellent forge body. I definitely would not trash it. However, with the ends open like that it will have a hard time getting past orange heat. Close up the back end and leave a small hole, say 2" dia so that the end of a long piece can poke through. Block up the front with the soft firebrick in the first photo leaving an opening that is big enough for what you are working on. The TRex ought be able to get that interior white hot. The 1" liner of cast refractory will a while to reach welding heat, as compared to a pure kaowool forge, but it gives you a nice durable interior. Kaowool liners always need repairing. And it will hold plenty of heat when it gets to temp.

Make sure you have plenty of ventilation. That forge will consume a lot of air. If it gets starved for oxygen, it will produce a lot of CO.

A good quality 4" or 5" angle grinder is invaluable. This is a tool that gets worked hard. Dont go cheap on this. Better yet get 4" AND a 5". You can keep one set up with a grinding wheel and the other with a cutoff disk that will make it easy cut up bars for forging.

A hardware store 2lb hammer with a cross pein will work fine if you use your grinder to round the face and widen the pein.

You can avoid tongs for a while by using long pieces of stock. You can also get by to some extent with vise grips but in the end you will need tongs. Lots of tongs. Lots and lots and lots of tongs! Down the road you might make your own but its not a beginner project. You can often buy them used but unless you are getting them for a few dollars a piece, wait until you have enough experience to judge good from bad. There's a lot of really crappy tongs out on ebay as well as some really beautiful ones. Starting out, I suggest buying a couple three brand new, if your budget can handle it.

The anvil is the biggie. It's expensive whichever way you go, new or used. Buying used depends a lot on your location. Some parts of the states are infested with anvils, in others, they are rare as diamonds. Again, you have to know what you are doing to buy second hand. There are pitfalls. Join your local ABANA chapter. They probably have regular meets in blacksmiths shops. You will learn a great deal just by showing up. These groups are always very supportive and encouraging to new smiths. They will know where the anvils are in your location. Very likely someone will have one to sell. You won't get a steal from a smith. He will know the value of an anvil. But you can count on getting a good useable anvil and probably some tools with it. If your budget can handle it, just buy a new one from Euroanvils or Old World Anvils.

Other tools:

A heavy duty, solidly mounted 4" or larger vise. Ideally a blacksmiths post vise that is designed to withstand hammering.

A drill press. Even a cheap HF drill press is better than none.

A good quality hacksaw with good quality blades, Lennox or Starret.

A chopsaw for cutting stock is a real help. Again, even a cheapo is useful.

A fire proof work table. If you drop red hot iron on that wooden table in the photo above, it will ignite. There will be no messing about with charring and smouldering. The spot where the iron touches will just burst into flames. (Dont ask how I know this.) You can cover the top with a piece of cement board, bricks, paving stones or similar.

Not an absolute necessity but an oxy acetylene torch is invaluable in a blacksmith shop. This too is a chunk of change but if you are patient, you can often find a complete rig for cheap on Craiglist and the like.

Good luck man :)

[Ross_FL]

maddog

Thanks for the advice. I may consider retaining the forge body if people think it has hope. I was using soft brick for the front and back and wasn't getting past orange/yellow. Maybe I didn't give it enough time, who knows. I ITC'ed the inside if you can't tell. I get a pretty good flame with the T-Rex.

So what did you think about my dual burner idea? I would probably need a new forge body if I decided to go with dual burners.

Here is the guys shop that I kind of want mine to resemble, I like his portable forge and anvil cart. I've talked to him a few times, he makes some really nice stuff with what you see on his shop pages.
Jesus Hernandez Shop

Another question, what should I staring keeping an eye out for as far as practice metal goes?

Forgot to mention, I have this Jet mill that I've got about half way refurbished. Mechanically it works great, cosmetically it's not so great as you can tell. It would work great as a drill press, but the collets and tooling would cost as much as a nice anvil. I'm thinking about selling it as is and that should cover alot of the stuff I need. Problem is, it's in my parents garage, I need a truck and a cheery picker to move it.

I also found a really nice 5" vice with anvil on clearance at a wood supply company near me, and I have the angle grinder from my home improvement projects!!

[maddog]

maddog

Thanks for the advice. I may consider retaining the forge body if people think it has hope. I was using soft brick for the front and back and wasn't getting past orange/yellow. Maybe I didn't give it enough time, who knows. I ITC'ed the inside if you can't tell. I get a pretty good flame with the T-Rex.

So what did you think about my dual burner idea? I would probably need a new forge body if I decided to go with dual burners.

Here is the guys shop that I kind of want mine to resemble, I like his portable forge and anvil cart. I've talked to him a few times, he makes some really nice stuff with what you see on his shop pages.Another question, what should I staring keeping an eye out for as far as practice metal goes?

Forgot to mention, I have this Jet mill that I've got about half way refurbished. Mechanically it works great, cosmetically it's not so great as you can tell. It would work great as a drill press, but the collets and tooling would cost as much as a nice anvil. I'm thinking about selling it as is and that should cover alot of the stuff I need. Problem is, it's in my parents garage, I need a truck and a cheery picker to move it.

I also found a really nice 5" vice with anvil on clearance at a wood supply company near me, and I have the angle grinder from my home improvement projects!!

You say the forge is about 6" dia? I am guessing the chamber is about 12" long so the volume is about 340 cu in. An ordinairy atmospheric burner made from plumbing parts could handle that. A TRex should have no problem. Furthermore you have 3" of kaowool which gives great heat retention. If you dont want that forge, I do!

One mistake that beginners often make with forges is to get too ambitious too soon. They go for designs that are too complicated and too big, spend a lot of money and end up drowning with the project. It's very discouraging. That forge is a perfect size, even a little large. I could weld in that forge. I could make a gate with that forge, a gate with large scrolls.

Rather than ramp up the complexity, why not trouble shoot this forge? You can get plenty of advice from experienced smiths in the gas forge forum at this site. At the end, you will have learned a lot, you will have a great little forge and the satisfaction of successfuly completing a project. Then you will have the knowledge and experience to think about a two burner.

I suggest the following: If you have any extra wool, cut a strip about 18" x 2" and use it to line the arch at the back end of the forge. Add another one about 12" long. This should make a wall of kaowool 2" deep with a 2" hole in the center. Coat with ITC 100. Block up the front with fire brick leaving a 2" or smaller gap in the middle. Fire up the Trex until the inside of the forge shows a small region with a red glow then go pedal to the metal. Raise the gas pressure as high as you can and still keep the exhaust neutral. It should be orangey yellow and rough. At this point the burner should be roaring so loud that conversation is difficult. Put a scrap of kaowool inside the chamber where you can see it, fiddle with the choke to get the hottest glow on the piece of wool. The ideal gas / air ratio may change as the forge heats up. Keep an eye on the propane tank to make sure it doesnt start frosting up. Bake for 30 mins. The interior should be the color of butter, perhaps even cream.

[Ross_FL]

I'll see what I can do. If I did rebuild, I would take the same approach, just use an 8" or 10" pipe instead of this 12" steel bucket and make the chamber 4" inside instead of 6".

I do like how the kaowool got stiff after the first use. It really locked the cast chamber in there really solid, it doesn't budge. I actually broke an identical chamber I made because they are so fragile so I'm actually glad that the wool has locked it in place.

Is ITC that's 2 years old still any good?

How does my original coat look?

Here are some better pictures.

[maddog]

I'll see what I can do. If I did rebuild, I would take the same approach, just use an 8" or 10" pipe instead of this 12" steel bucket and make the chamber 4" inside instead of 6".

I do like how the kaowool got stiff after the first use. It really locked the cast chamber in there really solid, it doesn't budge. I actually broke an identical chamber I made because they are so fragile so I'm actually glad that the wool has locked it in place.

Is ITC that's 2 years old still any good?

How does my original coat look?

Here are some better pictures.

Forge looks good. Fire it up!

A milling machine is very useful. I would be reluctant to give it up. Cant you get a drill chuck for it and use it for drilling? You could probably get the tooling for cheap on ebay. Well only you know your priorities. If you need to get it on a truck, call a tow truck. If you set up the rigging yourself it shouldnt cost $50 to have a tow truck lift it onto the bed of a PU truck

[bajajoaquin]

I second the thought about the mill. You should be able to get a drill chuck for it pretty cheap. Look at Enco. The mill should tell you the taper of the quill. Its probably MT3 or 4. From there you can get an adapter for a drill chuck. For example, I think I spent $30 to get a drill press up and running. I bought a 4MT to 3JT adapter, and put my 3JT chuck on the press.

How heavy is the steel you're using for your anvil? Any sense of what kind of steel it is? Until you find another, bigger anvil, probably your best bet is to find a way to mount it, so that it's as solid as possible.

Last, get a smaller hammer. You can probably find a 2 to 2-1/2 pound cross pein or ball pein at a garage sale for a few bucks. If not, you can buy them (as mentioned) at a local hardware store for $10-$15. A lighter hammer will be more effective than a heavier one.

[MattBower]

maddog has given you a lot of good advice, and I agree with all of it. The only thing slowing down that forge (a bit) is that your castable liner is pretty thick. That's going to take a while to heat up. But with soft firebrick doors and 3" of wool outside, it will eventually heat up, and it should get to welding heat without too much trouble. Are you sure you're not just being a little impatient?

The up side of the thick(ish) castable mass is that it'll be resistant to flux and mechanical damage, and it won't cool off much when you put cold stock into the forge.

[Ross_FL]

Forge looks good. Fire it up!

A milling machine is very useful. I would be reluctant to give it up. Cant you get a drill chuck for it and use it for drilling? You could probably get the tooling for cheap on ebay. Well only you know your priorities. If you need to get it on a truck, call a tow truck. If you set up the rigging yourself it shouldnt cost $50 to have a tow truck lift it onto the bed of a PU truck

Ive moved it multiple times, it's just a pain and costs to rent the cheery picker.

To get that thing up and running I would need the collets and a vice to hold work and that's not even including the bits plus I need the lube set up plus I need to get a 220v setup. I don't know though, I'll probably just keep it sitting until I want to get back into it. It would be cool to use!

As far as the forge goes, you've beat some sense into me. I'm going to pick up some hard/soft brick tomorrow Thursday and revamp it and get it fired up this weekend.

I've made a whole list of the little things I need get and need to do to have a successful bladesmithing weekend. I am also going to just get everything situated and in place well ahead of time.

I'll have a photo documentary of the whole things of course!

[Ross_FL]

Forge looks good. Fire it up!

A milling machine is very useful. I would be reluctant to give it up. Cant you get a drill chuck for it and use it for drilling? You could probably get the tooling for cheap on ebay. Well only you know your priorities. If you need to get it on a truck, call a tow truck. If you set up the rigging yourself it shouldnt cost $50 to have a tow truck lift it onto the bed of a PU truck

http://www.jettools.com/us/manufacturing/en/product.html?node=4634&product=947

r-8 3" quill.

[Ross_FL]

I second the thought about the mill. You should be able to get a drill chuck for it pretty cheap. Look at Enco. The mill should tell you the taper of the quill. Its probably MT3 or 4. From there you can get an adapter for a drill chuck. For example, I think I spent $30 to get a drill press up and running. I bought a 4MT to 3JT adapter, and put my 3JT chuck on the press.

How heavy is the steel you're using for your anvil? Any sense of what kind of steel it is? Until you find another, bigger anvil, probably your best bet is to find a way to mount it, so that it's as solid as possible.

Last, get a smaller hammer. You can probably find a 2 to 2-1/2 pound cross pein or ball pein at a garage sale for a few bucks. If not, you can buy them (as mentioned) at a local hardware store for $10-$15. A lighter hammer will be more effective than a heavier one.

As far as the anvil, it's about 45-50 lbs. It's the base spacer plate for a concrete compressive strength machine a friend of mine borrowed from their CMT lab. I've hit it as hard as I can with that hammer you see in the picture and it doesn't dent any. It's a $300 hunk of metal so I'm guessing it's pretty solid. I actually have a piece that screws into the bottom of it that I can use to tension it down to whatever I set it on.

[maddog]

Great! Let us know how it goes with the forge. If you have problems start a trouble shooting thread with pix. Some of the members here make and sell forges for a living.

You have a grinder already. Excellent. The 5" vice will be very useful but its not a smithing vice. It wont withstand serious hammering like a leg vice. Also the built in anvil will only take very light work. It's probably cast iron with a hollow interior. Nice for straightening nails. A real blacksmith's vice is as important as the anvil. And I don't care what they tell you in church, you just can't have too many vices

40lbs is rather light for an anvil. It's ok to start with since you will be staying with light stock for a while but IMO the minumum useful weight is 100lbs. 150lbs - 250lbs is generally the range for an anvil. Almost any compact block of steel, soft or hard will serve as an anvil. In any case, mount your block securely so that it doesnt bounce or walk when you hammer on it.


Practice metal: This depends on your style. Many will say steel is cheap and you shouldn't waste your time on scrap of uncertain quality. This is probably wisest. But I am a scrounger and I love to work with found material. I collect anything that has solid stock in it 3/8" or larger. I cut it up into rods, burn the paint off in the forge and hammer it. This has its risks. The paint might have lead in it, or a zinc coating under it. Even without that the fumes are not good for you. I turn the fan on high and open the doors. For a while, I also used rebar for practicing basic forging techniques. For the time being, stick to small stock, 1/2" or smaller and concentrate on hammer control and technique.

If you want to make your own tools, then you can collect coil spring, leaf spring, sway bars, axles etc...

But all this is moot until you have a working forge.

I want Jesus Hernandez shop too! Actually I'd be very happy if he just came over and straigthened mine out so it was as neat as his. Dust covers on the machines!! Criminy!

Here is a video showing the bare minimum for a working blacksmith shop. Actually this guy is a bladesmith!

[Ross_FL]

lol

You're telling me I don't need a forge or a hammer?

[pkrankow]

lol

You're telling me I don't need a forge or a hammer?

Those help too.

Here's my tiny 1 burner. It is 4 1/2x9 by about 5 tall. It is built around a stove fire brick using 1 piece of 6 inch stove pipe, one 3/4 inch burner, and ceramic wool(about 1 running foot of 1 inch, so 2 sq. feet.) It is fastened with self drilling sheet metal screws.

I am cooking 1 1/2 inch 4140 round in this picture, and melted a piece of coil spring the same day.

Phil

[maddog]

lol

You're telling me I don't need a forge or a hammer?

I like this video. It's a reality check. He makes a living with that setup. Two goats for a spear head? You'd be lucky to get that price for your blades!

Well he does have a forge. He dug a hole in Africa which came ready made. The moving parts are a small boy which he probably made himself.

Notice that his anvil is securely mounted. And also that he uses his fingers to rake the coals!!

I just dont understand why he hasn't ruined his arm by pounding with that piece of steel. I've watched the video several times carefully and I dont see his hand releasing at the point of impact.

Phil, Thats a great little forge. I like the big tongs too. Actually I am right now building a small forge of very similar proportions.

[Ross_FL]

Yeah, I saw that, guess I can also scratch gloves and tongs off the list. And if you can make a good living in Africa making blades and other primitive weapons........ Hmmmmmm

[pkrankow]

I made those tongs to handle the 1 1/2 inch stock. They are beasts made from 1x1/2 mild, and are the 3rd pair of tongs I have made. The first pair I made broke because the hinge was too thin.

He hasn't ruined his arm because the shock does not travel to the arm. That is probably a 3# piece of rail top.

Phil

[yaypancakes]

Hey, I'm not an image hosting site.

[Dodge]

I can't seem to open any of the "posted images" Is anyone else having this issue? Are they uploaded to the site or are they links to an image host?

[calala]

Same here Dodge.

[Jeff Lodge]

Looks like the OP had his images hosted on yaypancakes site and he found out about it and removed them.

[Dodge]

ahhh. That 'splains a lot. Thanks Jeff :)