Sak-Mak air hammer and/or Phoenix

[Smith Studio]

I have just recently relocated my ironwork and fabrication business back to my family ranch in Wyoming, where I grew up. I am re-setting up the entire shop and enterprise. I am planning to purchase my first power hammer. Along with sculpture, I produce ironwork: from furniture to architectural elements, gates, and rails. This will be the only power hammer on the premises, so versatility and control are my biggest criterion. Since last December I have been researching and keeping an ear out for good air-hammer reviews. I had pretty much settled on buying and picking up one of Tom Clark's Say-Maks (SPH-50) within the next one or two months. I just called the number from the Ozark tool website to realize that it was a disconnected number. My questions are:
1. realizing that the Ozark School of Blacksmithing has gone out of business, is the Ozark heavy tool/ Say-Mak hammers still in business? and if so is there a different phone number than 573.438.4725 to buy a Say-Mak?
2. I had my hammer purchase choices down to the SPH-50 (110lb.) Sak-Mak as a self contained hammer OR a Phoenix hammer needing auxiliary compressor, which I would need to also purchase, but could really use an air compressor update in the shop anyway. Any comments between the two hammers? or between a self-contained hammer or a Phoenix and/or Big Blue?
Any input would be greatly appreciated!
thank you.

[nonjic]

It would be worth considering the anyang 88# hammer as a 'self contained' option, or John Larsons 'ironkiss' for a utility hammer (seems to pack a lot more punch than the other utility options)

Both vendors (James Johnson is the Anyang distributor) are members of this site, might be worth contacting them both? ;)

[monstermetal]

Nathen Neale is the new Say Mak rep. He is located in Gearheart OR and his number is (503) 440-1073

Nate is a good guy and can help you out

I also know of a Say Mak 50kg hammer for sale in Spokane that could be had for $6000. Might even get the guy to deliver it too you

The Phoenix is a great hammer but current cost is over $20,000 and it will take atleast a year after you send a deposit to get the hammer ( they might tell you different but everyone I know waited 12-18 months to get a hammer)

[monstermetal]

Iron kiss and Anyang are both good options. The Big Blu is not really apples to apples. Check out the " power hammer test". A 75lb Iron kiss beat a 155lb big Blu

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I think the Say-mak is a pretty good hammer. Read the Power hammer test thread --->CLICK HERE<---

It's a real eye opener. I just bought a 75 pound Iron Kiss and I'm now certain I made the right choice. It has fantastic control and it out-stomps the Big Blu 155 by a pretty wide margin. John Larson is on a crusade to build the best hammer and he's selling them way too cheap (IMHO). I like self-contained hammers, but in my one-man shop I enjoy not having to listen to them running all the time. My air compressor is in a shed outside. Besides I need air anyway. I'll be posting videos pretty soon.

[781]

At the ABANA conference in Memphis Bob Alexander, MO, was selling the remaining stock of hammers from Tom Clark's Estate.
It is good to hear someone has taken over the distribution of Say Maks in case I need parts for mine. I did lend it to a local group and tipped it over returning it to the shop breaking the oiler but have silver soldered it back and have it back in running condition.
Mine is a 60 Kilo and have not had any problems
The single phase is more conveiniant for most but I had 3 phase avalible.
The Spokane hammer sounds like a good price depending on condition as new they are at least $9000 or more.

[pkozloski]

I too have been looking at power hammers and have come to the conclusion that Anyang is my next hammer. These hammers are industrial quality. I think the self contained is the way to go. Look at what the big names in blacksmithing are using... Russell jacqua
Albert paley, Michael Bondi, mark Asbery (owns an Anyang). All used self contained hammers. For the size and cost they are extremely hard hitting, good control and are meant to run for a lifetime.

[Jymm Hoffman]

Do a search on power hammers. You will find my comments, I own 2 of the Say Maks, or technically one Say Ha and one Say Mak. I had the good fortune to buy them from Tom. In any case you can not beat them for the money. In fact, while time was alive, he posted a challenge here, to be done at SOFA's Quad State Round Up. That was to see which (who's) hammer could draw the longest taper in one heat. All the competition did not show up with their hammers at the event that normally did.
Search the archives here on IForge and you will see.
Jymm

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I've used self-contained hammers for more than 30 years and love Chambersburgs and especially Nazels. Not All self-contained hammer are equal just as all utility (Kinyon) hammers are not equal. None measure up to the Big Two. But then, few could afford what they wanted for them either. I think both the Say-mak and the Anyang will give good service and I would not hesitate to buy either one.

I was never very impressed with the Kinyon hammers other than for home builders and mechanical hammer conversions. Then I started following John Larson's saga over on Forgemagic. For the last fifteen years I've watched him evolve his hammers to be the equal of similar self-contained hammers.

When I was in the market for a hammer last spring, I was just about ready to get an Anyang. Then at the California conference I had to listen to a couple of them running for three days and remembered the one thing I did not like about them - the constant noise! So, that was pretty much the deciding factor for me.

So now I have my Iron Kiss, I'm very impressed with it and happy with my choice. Oh yes, It's also 100% Made in America!

[arftist]

Good for you Grant. How does the price compare to Anyang?

[Smith Studio]

Wow! this forum is a fantastic and valuable source for information. All of these comments have been a huge help. Thank you!

Monster Metal, how would I contact the possible Say Mak up for sale in Spokane? (my best email is joshuaraysmith@gmail.com)

I had come across Iron Kiss in some of my research 6 months ago, but did not do enough follow up research. After looking around at reviews, testimony, and examples my interest has peaked quite extremely in the Iron Kiss. I love that they are designed and fabricated in the U.S. I am currently in need of a compressor update for sandblasting and plasma cutting demands, so the utility hammer is pretty attractive right now.

However Oregon is a lot closer to me than Maryland, to ship or pick up a hammer! So self-contained or separate compressor aside, is the Say Mak 50 and the Iron Kiss 100 (20:1) pretty comparable preforming hammers? And another side question: has any one had any experience ordering the Iron Kiss 100 sold exclusively through Blacksmith's Depot?

I also realize that I should do a little more looking in to Anyang as well! Factoring in versatility, control, power, and then cost and shipping (considering i live in the middle of nowhere) will all be considerations and I will keep you all posted on the final out come. Again I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the input. Thanks!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Well, the field has been narrowed a bit for you. All these are good hammers. Now it's more personal preference. We all have our own reasons. Let us know what you decide.

A note about the Anyang: Like the others, this hammer has made steady improvements. I don't hear nearly as much negative comments as a few years ago. So don't put too much weight on some of the older Anyangs. James Johnson seems to be committed to supplying a good product and taking care of the customer with help and service.

[monstermetal]

Call Bill Apple at 1 (360) 710-2248. He is not the owner but it's a friend of his

[Mainely,Bob]

The absolute best hammer for your application is only so much junk if it breaks and you can`t get parts for it.

That being said,I`d personally go with John`s Iron Kiss as you can pick up a phone and talk to the man himself if you have any problems.
Second to that I would have to say the having James`s commitment to Anyang is worth any small price difference that may be gained by buying elsewhere.If you are going to buy an imported hammer then you`d be hard pressed to find a more honest and helpful person.He`s been to the Anyang facilities and knows who to call to get the answers he may not have himself.I have no doubt he will do all he can to keep you and your hammer working.
Customer service shouldn`t be underestimated,go with folks who are in it for the long haul and have proven to be ethical in their dealing with others.You`ll be able to contact some of the best right here.

[Smith Studio]

Thanks again for all of the input. I am pretty sure that I have decided that the Iron Kiss will meet the demands of my space and working process the best. Although I got very close to planning a trip up to Spokane, I've decided to spend a little more on the hammer that I feel fits absolutely best to my situation, which is the utility hammer and the Iron Kiss. Thank you very much though Monster Metal, for the Say-mak contact. I did not call Bill, but I will keep the number on close file as that would be my plan B.

I have decided to go with the Iron Kiss 100 (20:1). Now I just need to talk to Kayne & Son to see how soon I can get one ordered and shipped to the Rocky Mountain West. I did talk to both John Larson and David Kayne on the phone today. Both exceptionally good and helpful guys to talk to. They also both mentioned that I should talk to Grant Saver as someone with some expertise on the subject!

Thanks again for all of the help and comments. I will try to post some images once I finish building shop and actually get the hammer on the floor.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

In the interest of "full disclosure", I need to add that I've had a long time business relationship with Kayne & Son (aka Blacksmiths Depot) and they are now the exclusive dealer for the Iron Kiss 100. I actually bought my Iron Kiss prior to their discussions about entering into that relationship. I am favorably disposed toward both of these parties at the present time and am extremely happy the Kaynes have decided to represent the Iron Kiss. It's interesting that with no prior discussion, we both decided to bet on John Larson.

[monstermetal]

Think you will be very happy with your 100lb Ironkiss. Keep us posted!

[Bryce Masuk]

I bought my anyang straight from the factory because it was cheaper, usually the dealers tune them abit and check over everything.
I also stripped mine mostly apart which probley ruined the top tup seal
I had a few problems and spent 10 hours playing with it and I also blew out both the upper and lower tup gaskets

I made them myself to replace them which was quick and easy
it took sometime for the hammer to run right but once it broke in it has been great its just as good or better than any air hammer I have used.
its really nice and it has plenty of power.
I cant picture myself needing anything bigger at least for a long time but i hope to have a few hammers so i can do multiple operations without switching tools or dies.
the fact the frame is one piece that is cast is pretty nice it wont flex or loosen up like the saymak hammers they are a piece of 1 inch plate on one side and then 5/16 or 3/8 on the otherside
the only thing for anyangs that isnt the greatest is the steel used for the dies is just chinese .40 carbon steel its not as nice as s7 or as hard as the dies on the saymak units.
I have seen a few anyang hammers with the center worn down on them but they may have no been as hard back then either.
the upper die on the anyang is also harder to make but a lower die is the same as a saymak, you have to be careful on the anyang hammers because the key can potentialy damage the hammer
honestly though I am really happy with my hammer now it just took sometime to get it running really nice.
I also suggest taking the treadle and mounting it on the base and not extending the orginal one down with tubing, but directly doing it this way
I had it both ways and the control was much better with it pivoting off the base.
Ironkiss is a nice hammer with a utility hammer its ALL about the valving
It seems to me that most of these hammers are just built with what is on the shelf and not really engineered to really run right.
selfcontained hammers have rotary valves and a direct manifold from the other cylinder so it can move tons of volume easily,
obviously the iron kiss has had alot of testing to get it right but some other hammers with tiny little hoses and spiderwebs of lines, just cant pass enough gas quick enough which is why you need to run super high pressure to force it though and then all the little parts wear out.
I think utility hammers get a bad rap because of lack of engineering, or the fact they were orginally designed to run on steam.
the reality is that if you have enough air and can move it quick enough they should be the same or maybe better in someways because you have control of the speed.
the self contained hammer is wasteful in someways alot of the time they are idling wasting power when the utility hammer wastes nothing.
but then again if the air isnt there when you need it then it isnt much fun

I would also like to add that even though I did not buy my hammer from James Johnson or John N
they both were very helpful and encouraging to me.
James helped me quiet abit, on the phone even and though email and he is on the ball for customer service
I think my problems I had in the beginning were from the treadle or break in process or maybe even a small air leak. It could have been all three!

my hammer was also setup with the linkage's out of square (out of parallel)
it hit really hard but had little control, I think any of the problems that I encountered would have been taken care of my john or james if you bought the hammer from a dealer.

[monstermetal]

"the fact the frame is one piece that is cast is pretty nice it wont flex or loosen up like the saymak hammers they are a piece of 1 inch plate on one side and then 5/16 or 3/8 on the otherside"

Have you ever actually seen a Say Mak hammer that flexed or loosened up? I have owned three and know of 7 others that friends and family use.... Never heard of any such issue....

I suppose its possible... But you would have to allow about 40 bolts to all get loose before you could have any movement...

I would agree that a cast frame hammer is rigid.. But my 135lb Say Mak sits on a 1800lb base made of one and a half inch thick plate with a chunk of 16" solid cold rolled 12" tall under the anvil... "flex" is not an issue...

[Bryce Masuk]

"the fact the frame is one piece that is cast is pretty nice it wont flex or loosen up like the saymak hammers they are a piece of 1 inch plate on one side and then 5/16 or 3/8 on the otherside"

Have you ever actually seen a Say Mak hammer that flexed or loosened up? I have owned three and know of 7 others that friends and family use.... Never heard of any such issue....

I suppose its possible... But you would have to allow about 40 bolts to all get loose before you could have any movement...

I would agree that a cast frame hammer is rigid.. But my 135lb Say Mak sits on a 1800lb base made of one and a half inch thick plate with a chunk of 16" solid cold rolled 12" tall under the anvil... "flex" is not an issue...

any bolt will loosen up eventually, doesnt mean it will fall apart

a casting is a pretty solid structure if its done right.

one thing with a saymak is that if either cylinder was to get ruined you can swap it out like a volkswagen.
might be expensive but at least its an option.


I dont think that they make a fabricated hammer because its better but because you need to be setup to cast it on this kind of scale is a big setup.

but it also harder to make a fabricated hammer because everything needs to be machined pretty accurately because you have numerous parts.

I have never seen a fabricated engine it just seems like something like a hammer with castings and various other pieces that are machined or cast and have different rates would loosen up because of the fact its heating up and cooling down and the expansion and contraction eventually will do something.
plus the vibration lol

If I could have afforded it I probley would have bought a saymak but anyang offered me a deal not even you could refuse I waited 6 months to get it though.

the saymak is nice though because you can swap the dies faster with big keys you can hit easily. the dies are easier to make they are also the same as the kuhn and shahindler sp? so you might be able to get them easier.

[nonjic]

The dies on the Anyang hammers are not made from a plain .4 carbon steel. They are die steeel. I am waiting to get confirmation from the factory on the exact composition and heat treat specifications.

I have never had a problem with premature die wear on a hammer.

The top die key is fitted with a slide accross catch that prevents any posibility of it ever catching on the stuffing box gland. It is also a safety feature that the die can never work loose.

Ill post up the spec of the die steel as soon as I receive it.

[Bryce Masuk]

I was just going by what the anyang site says which is 1045 chinese steel

I am not knocking your product

http://www.chinesehammers.com/cp7.html

the small upper key just takes a little more effort to take in and out vs just a regular open key without a lock