Celtic Forge, anyone use one?

[Alan DuBoff]

The smith over at Ardenwood Historical Farm had an interesting forge that was of celtic style, I was told. It was a frame that was welded together with cement over it and it formed a large U shape, with an area that formed a small bowl on the bottom (in the middle of the U shaped struct) which had a blower pipe in the bottom.

Anyone use such a beast? It was pretty cool, and the smith said you can put a crucible in it if you desire also.

[Sam Salvati]

Sounds cool, I would love to see pictures to get a better idea about what it looks like!

[Alan DuBoff]

I'll try to get some pics when I'm over there again. I reminded me of something that was a project for a bird bath in someone's yard, or a piece to be used for a waterfall, because of how the concrete looked on it, but the smith had a decent setup for it with a couple bellows. It wasn't assembled when I saw it.

[ThomasPowers]

Please define "celtic" you talking about the people in Austria, Turkey, Spain, France, the British Isles? Please state the time as there were active for more centuries than the USA has been around.

OK now to get into it: I know of no bottom blown forges used before modern times. Side blown forges allow the trash/clinker/ashes of charcoal (and coal) to drop down below the tuyere. (remember that coal was not used as a smithing fuel until the hight to late middle ages, "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel, Gies & Gies, and coal was not used for smelting iron until the 1700's when Abraham Darby first commercially did it in Coalbrookdale England.)

I'd sure like to know what they are basing that forge on! There is a Museum on the Celts in Duernberg Austria that has a forge as part of their display but I'm not too sure of their research either. IIRC it's shown in "Out of the Firey Furnace".

I've been part of a group of people researching pre-1000 bloomery smelting for over 10 years now and can dig up some references if you would like.

Thomas


Thomas

[Alan DuBoff]

Please define "celtic" you talking about the people in Austria, Turkey, Spain, France, the British Isles? Please state the time as there were active for more centuries than the USA has been around.

Good question, I don't have an exact region for you, but just assumed Europe which all of those regions you list are within.

The smith is very much into celtic designs, and again, I don't know what region, you can look on his site to see the type of celtic stuff he has pictured.

I see Romans quoted on some of the pieces, and you don't list them above.

What got us talking about that was that we were talking about how the Japanese have a lot of techniques they've used for many, many years, and they appear to be one of the best marketing machines for themself, placing the craftsmen on a pedestal for a dying art. They sure get the big $$$s for their work though, so it works!

However, he mentioned to me that the Japanese used to get their steel from the celtics, and which region I do not know, but he also pointed out that there is a celtic style of hammer that the Japanese also create, and many folks today believe the style was created by them, but he mentioned the celtics had created the same design long before the Japanese were forging. I'm not sure where he got his information, and I'm kinda paraphrasing as I only discussed it with him once. He also baulked at the idea of old anchor chain being better quality iron, which the Japanese claim. He stated that today's modern steel has much better quality, and there's no such thing as being able to pound the carbon into tighter molecules, something that Barr Tools website claims also, to some extent. He did say that is true on older iron, but that modern stuff stays constant, even after forging.

OK now to get into it: I know of no bottom blown forges used before modern times.

This was a bottom blown forge, I believe, but there was a small bowl area and it might be possible it was blowing in from the side of that area, I'm not certain to be honest. I didn't get a chance to look at it too much, but he showed me it wasn't nearly as heavy as one would expect, as the frame was welded and the concreate was not as heavy as one would expect. He was thinking about selling the frames to folks and helping people understand how to build one of these forges, and claimed how versatle it is. Although he uses a coal forge most all of the time.

I'll be sure to ask more questions and try to get a few pics to post here Thomas.

And as a DISCAIMER, I've offered a lot of "hear say" on something I don't know very much about yet, so keep that in mind. I was posing the question to try and get more information on the subject.

[Rantalin]

I see Romans quoted on some of the pieces, and you don't list them above.

Alan, the reason that thre Romans are not listed as Celtic is that they were actually enemies. The Celtic tribes that came in from northern England were a threat to the Roman Empire, and I believe the reason why the Roman Legion's became such a powerful fighting force.

[ThomasPowers]

It gets a bit more involved. The Roman's did go head to head with many celtic tribes, with a famous uprising occuring in the british isles. If you ever in Bath England visit the Roman museum there for an example of a celtic/roman anvil that was dug up around there.

(BTW the term Celtic comes from what the ancient greeks called them, Keltoi, they did not call themselves that and did not think of themselves as a people but rather on a tribal basis, a lot of our naming of them is from artistic styles based on grave finds eg La Tene)

OTOH there were romanized celts that lived inside the empire. There is still debates on two items the celts were supposed to have introduced to the romans: chainmail and steel.

Thomas

[Alan DuBoff]

Thomas,

Now I'm starting to see where the grey area resides, and it doesn't seem to cut and dry to the celtics vs. romans, and/or how either may have learned from the other. I need to look at more of the work to understand the style better. Scott Thomas had shown me some celtic spear heads that were pretty cool, and he said they could actually pierce steel. That's scary in itself, and one serious weapon.

Of course the fighting tactics at that time were fairly primitive, more of the charge and maul mentality.

This old style stuff is all very cool, and where a lot of the roots seem to have come from.

[ThomasPowers]

Well remember that the Titannic conclusively proved that *ice* can pierce steel...

[Alan DuBoff]

Took some pics of a couple of the Celtic forges that Scott Thomas built. At least what he refers to as Celtic forges. The air inlet is on the side, pre a question above from Thomas.

You can see a couple of the Celtic forges in this gallery.

[Mr Smith]

G'day Alan!

Thanks for the photos - some nice work there - I'm working on drawknives and chisels at the moment, so it's good to see how other folks do the same thing.

[Alan DuBoff]

G'day Alan!

Thanks for the photos - some nice work there - I'm working on drawknives and chisels at the moment, so it's good to see how other folks do the same thing.

More than happy to share them!

I can say this, I have 2 24" planer blades that came out of an old Oliver 24" planer, and I had this wild idea that I could use those and forge them into a draw knife or two. I don't know if they're thick enough though, they're only about 1/8" thick and about 3/4" wide. Most draw knives are about twice that, or about 1/4" thick and 1 1/2 wide. I think the steel would hold up at this thickness, but I'm no expert on it, and you can see the farrier's rasp used by Scott Thomas is quite a bit thicker and wider (I realize a pic is hard to tell, but trust me on that! )

The guy who I got them from would like to get a scorp back in return, and I'm gonna try to forge that for him. Scott didn't think the HSS the knives are made out of would that much more difficult than the round stock I've been using.

The chisels are interesting. I like the mortise chisels, but they need just a tad of refining.

That little hatchet works really well, it is the hatchet that we use to chop up the kindling in the smithy. Does the job quite well. Scott has a lot of cool stuff laying around the smithy, it's like going to a giant toy store! :cool: