Fosterob Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Hi all, I am thinking about a nazel hammer 2b 3b or 4b and was hoping to get some feedback on what they are selling for in this economy? I know of two #4 machines that recently sold for about $6000 each. are the smaller machine worth more? Is it possible to find a machine that needs more money in repairs than it is worth or are they worth more than most repairs? I remember seeing one that was totally full of water (at least 10 yrs) and had bad orange rust growing in it because the muffler was gone, ram was badly pitted and all moving parts frozen solid. All macines can be fixed but what to stay away from? Thank you Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 The 2 or 3-B's are the most desirable by far, for most people, especially the one piece machines. And they usually bring the most money. Before the economy went down, they were bringing $12 - $16K. 4's were rarely bringing more than $10K. It's a trade-off: the bigger hammers require more expense in transporting, installing and running. Yeah, conditions vary a LOT! Only you can decide what you are prepared undertake in the way of repairs and reconditioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Hi all, I am thinking about a nazel hammer 2b 3b or 4b and was hoping to get some feedback on what they are selling for in this economy? I know of two #4 machines that recently sold for about $6000 each. are the smaller machine worth more? Is it possible to find a machine that needs more money in repairs than it is worth or are they worth more than most repairs? I remember seeing one that was totally full of water (at least 10 yrs) and had bad orange rust growing in it because the muffler was gone, ram was badly pitted and all moving parts frozen solid. All macines can be fixed but what to stay away from? Thank you Rob Rob, The larger the cheaper due to costs of transport and setting up...as Grant has said. One pice 1,2 and 3B hammers are rare, but sell for more than the two piece because they are simpler to set up. I have only seen a few 1B..one sold for $13,000 rebuilt (in 1998 or so) and another for $7,000 with a resale price of $10,000. 2B I have seen in good shape for $5,000 at auction to $16,000 at machinery sellers. 3B from $6,000 to $16,000..some to $20,000, but I feel this is a bit beyond what the market will stand. 4B and N styles from $5500 to $10,000...the most recent on ebay was listed at $12,000 from the dealer and it sold for what $5500 last month? As to repair costs...they can reach far more than the initial buy price of the tool...what with motor and machining costs. I guess the smart answer to what they cost is ..."that depends". A good rule of thumb I have for all tools: If it is listed as "needs work" then be very aware that this means "does not function" and the price is lower. For tools you can not repair it may be best to get ones you can see in operation. Would you not wish to test drive a car before buying? That said I bought my 3B Nazel with a looking over while it sat in a warehouse not under power. Expect the transporting,rigging and setting up to be a good sum of money...cost about $7,000 with mine all told. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 Machinery dealers , like car dealers, want you to think that they have the cream and should command the highest prices. Sometimes they can have added value if they stand behind the machine and its condition. Chances are on a 1930's forging hammer they are wrong. What Rick failed to mention is the the highest value for any machine. Its the one that running in a shop and underpower currently. If tomorrow Rick found that 500 lb that he is looking for and decided to sell the 3B I think he might well double his investment. Not to us crazys here on the net, but to someone who doesnt want a project, isnt interested in saving machinery, just wants to forge the day his concrete is cured. A buyer like that isnt crazy or stupid, he is serious. That customer does exist and often has the funds. They get the cream and usually close the deal the second they see the right machine so long as they dont feel they are getting ripped off. If you have a manufacturing business that needs large forgings, $20k isnt going to make you think twice. Its still less then the price of a new pickup truck for your parts guy to run around in. Its alot for a small guy like most of us so we look for just the right deal and pray. That $5,600 4b is quickly turning into $10k with rigging , foundation and dies. And still we are praying there are no issues. You just dont know till its running in your shop how much it will cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Machinery dealers , like car dealers, want you to think that they have the cream and should command the highest prices. Sometimes they can have added value if they stand behind the machine and its condition. Chances are on a 1930's forging hammer they are wrong. What Rick failed to mention is the the highest value for any machine. Its the one that running in a shop and underpower currently. If tomorrow Rick found that 500 lb that he is looking for and decided to sell the 3B I think he might well double his investment. Not to us crazys here on the net, but to someone who doesnt want a project, isnt interested in saving machinery, just wants to forge the day his concrete is cured. A buyer like that isnt crazy or stupid, he is serious. That customer does exist and often has the funds. They get the cream and usually close the deal the second they see the right machine so long as they dont feel they are getting ripped off. If you have a manufacturing business that needs large forgings, $20k isnt going to make you think twice. Its still less then the price of a new pickup truck for your parts guy to run around in. Its alot for a small guy like most of us so we look for just the right deal and pray. That $5,600 4b is quickly turning into $10k with rigging , foundation and dies. And still we are praying there are no issues. You just dont know till its running in your shop how much it will cost. Yep, I should say that the $7G I mention above in my post was for the all stuff NOT including the cost of the hammer. $7,000 PLUS the hammer price. Kerry, Most of the hammers coming up for sale are coming out of industry not going into it. As to the 4B..if it only costs you $12,000 in total I think you have a good deal. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerrystagmer Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Mikes keeping the totals but unless we score some dies and a few other odds and ends cheap we will certainly be close to that number. I was wondering how you got that hammer purchased and installed for 7k! We lucked out on crane service by having a great price on forklift rental and being able to get it for an entire weekend for a day price. We could not have done it with anything less. From the side that forklift was fine, but once the load center was 4-5 ft out it was right on the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 If you want a hammer in the 100 - 200 pound range, you might want to consider the Iron Kiss, the Big Blue or the Anyang. All three are giving good service. I put my money on the Iron Kiss. I like a hammer that only makes noise when I'm using it, otherwise self-contained hammers have a lot to recommend them. I like John's design, construction and price. Drop one of his hammers on the floor, hook up the air and go. His 20:1 anvil and solid construction make them rock steady. I could have bought whatever I wanted.........Well actually I guess that's just what I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 I figure it probably cost me $15,000 to install the Massey 5cwt (600lb ram weight). This includes: Trucking the hammer(and several skids of tools and spare parts) about 2 miles, loading and unloading it. Buying a new motor (I got lucky and found a brand new surplus motor for a reasonable price) Digging the foundation and motor foundation Forming and pouring both foundations Having 4- 1 1/2" and 4- 1" anchor bolts threaded Having anchor plates flame cut to get cast into the foundation About 50 board ft of hardwood lumber to go under the hammer and make wedges around the anvil 60 amp disconnect, starter, conduit, and heavy wire 1" plate, angle iron 1" threaded rod 1" nuts and bolts for motor mount. Riggers to move the hammer from outside shop to inside set over top of anvil. 5 gallons of oil to top up the crankcase Polsulfide to seal around the anvil base NOT INCLUDED is: Buying the hammer Probably $10,000 or more in lost shop production time Wiring done by a retired industrial electrician Neighbours help with his big forklift installing anvil. The concrete driveway in front of my shop is now about 2" lower and broken into many pieces from the heavy forklift driving over it, it needs replacing soon. New grinder to replace the one I burned out grinding concrete. I am glad I installed the hammer, it opened up lots of jobs that I could not do before and made some jobs that I was doing but not making shop rate on profitable. But a big hammer is a big commitment. Every time I turned around I was spending $100+ on all sorts of little things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 As others have said, the cost of the hammer is not REALLY the cost of the hammer... I paid $4000 for my 3B... It took another $8000 and three years to make it run But to have 12K in to a good running one peice 3B I think is reasonable. The only 1 Pc 3B that has sold localy brought 15K and it had some slight issues It really comes down to condition.... Just sticking with 3B prices... $5000 could be way to much and $14,000 could be a great deal... It just depends on the hammer and situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 Thank you all for the good info. I am mostly concerned with hammer value itself. After reading these posts it seems that a good running 4b should be $8,000-10,000 with dies and needs no work, just set it on its foundation plug it in and run it. If the same machine needs for example $3,000 to bring it up to good running condition then should I expect to pay $3,000 less for it? Is 8-10k to high in this market? Should it be 6-8k in good running condition with no issues? As Ric said most of these machines are coming out of industry so I am hopeful this is driving the price down from a few years ago. On the smaller 3b an 2b machines fair values seemed a bit more than 4b but the total cost of the hammer including trucking setup etc... about the same. More money for hammer and less on set up & transportation I now expect the set up costs of this size machine to be close to the same as each other, trucking, rigging, concrete, electrical, etc... Monster: Do you have postings on repairing your 3b or can you briefly describe what needed to be done, Was it bore the cylinders? Something else Grant's post reminded me of is the price of machines help set the price of older machines, not many people will pay much more for an old machine than a new one costs (anyang) I should look into new costs of those. I remember at the last CBA conference an Anyang 165 with a lot of tooling was less than $8,000 and I do not think anyone bought it. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 Something else Grant's post reminded me of is the price of machines help set the price of older machines, not many people will pay much more for an old machine than a new one costs (anyang) I should look into new costs of those. I remember at the last CBA conference an Anyang 165 with a lot of tooling was less than $8,000 and I do not think anyone bought it. Rob Rob, If you are thinking about a non-Nazel hammer than I suggest you sit down and think about what you wish to forge (size,material--exotic new alloy steel or brass etc,number of pieces) and overall budget and select the range of hammers from there. If you are open to "anything" then a tool will appear rather soon. IF you want a specific one which is plug-n-play then....catch as catch can. Nothing new here I know. I have only good things to say about the IronKiss and mostly good things to say about the imported air hammers...which I have vast experience with having used some of them for a few hours at others shops. One thing is for sure No matter what you have you will adapt to it and at some point wish it hit harder,faster,softer,slower. Don't rule out a hydraulic press or friction press or rolling mill or any other tool which will do the job required.....I have found the most difficult thing is not the tool, but the job....very few tooling limitations can not be worked around with creative thinking and creative doing...but if there is not "do" to do, well, that is another matter entirely. The work will dictate the tooling required..if you have tooling then the work is done within the capabilities of that tool set....the rest is just getting more tools or being more creative with what you have. in case you have not noticed...I am of the "get more tools" camp. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 I was not seriously considering another type of hammer but more using their cost on a comparison basis. I too am the more tools is better camp and prefer american iron whenever possible/practical Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 30, 2010 Share Posted June 30, 2010 in case you have not noticed...I am of the "get more tools" camp. Ric For those of you who dont know the "GET MORE TOOLS" camp is headquartered at Monster Metal in Auburn Washington and presided over by Founding Father Larry Lee Langdon... Rob, My 3B was a basket hammer... the unlucky soul who owned it prior to me spent thousands of dollars (story was 4 grand in machine work plus $1000 for dies) rebuilding the air compressor side and main crank/journals only to have the ram break in two 50 hours after the rebuild was complete... He was mentally done with the hammer and after trying to sell it for a year or so I bought it for half his asking price... In hind site even the $4000 I paid was plenty... I have $12K in it not figuring a dime for my own time.... So anyway... My hammer has been sleeved in both bores but prior to me owning it... it has a donor ram from another machine... I would say the anyang 165 that was tooled for $8K was a great deal.... I would bet its either sold or there is a reason why it hasn't sold I think if you priced a new 165 you would find it much more... ( not really sure but the last Striker 165 I priced was about $15000) I feel qualified to give pricing on hammers... I have sold over twenty in the last two years.. My feeling is if you can buy a good running 2B or 3B for less than ten grand you doing well... If its just kind of running and needs minor work maybe 20-30% less.... for a one peice add %30% I have a really nice 2CH 200lb one peice Chambersburg that I am finally ready to sell... It has new guides and seals and a new set of H-13 dies with 4140 keys... Its a really nice hammer and it will bring $15 grand... It might take a bit to sell but its a top notch turn key machine and really quite reasonable at $15,000 considering.... I mean I just hauled home a Say Mak 60KG hammer (135lb) by the time you figure the cost to build the base, the motor and dies its a $13,000 hammer... About the same or a little more for the same size Sahinler.... So to me a few thousand more for a 200lb Chambersberg is a no brainer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.