Who's your Master?

[youngdylan]

Is that the normal way of instaling the Eire or has it been lifted as per the Jessy James nazel?

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Just a little bit that I know about this type of hammer. Looks funny with that skinny rod sticking down, don't it? So how do they keep it from turning, I hear you ask? Patience, it's all in the wrist. The rod continues all the way up through the top head and is hidden by that cover. This upper part of the rod is square and runs in a very large square bushing. Cool, huh?

[youngdylan]

It looks like the Erie is in a architectural shop, location? Also a few billets sitting there next to it, looks like fun.

looks like it's not too old a photo looking at the footswitches (for a roller?) at the bottom of the picture

[youngdylan]

Just a little bit that I know about this type of hammer. Looks funny with that skinny rod sticking down, don't it? So how do they keep it from turning, I hear you ask? Patience, it's all in the wrist. The rod continues all the way up through the top head and is hidden by that cover. This upper part of the rod is square and runs in a very large square bushing. Cool, huh?

so what is the weight of the tup? It sorta looks a bit light compared to the size of the frame?

[Nazelhammers]

Can't offer anything help or advise on these hammers because I haven't studied them. I can just offer the pictures for all to digest. I wanted to take the Beaudry apart but it didn't go over with the owner.

[Nazelhammers]

The 5B in the back ground to the right in the picture with the Eire is a 5B we sold to our customer with the Eire. The 5B came out of Philadelphia Electric’s maintenance shop before it was closed.

[youngdylan]

I do have a friend who is 82 and calls him self a master blacksmith. To be frank I am a better smith than him.

South

I sure as xxxx hope you're a better smith than hin, you're 36. Can't see an 82 year old getting too much work done

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

+@$%&#&spit^*())#@ & sputter*&$! Goll dang young whipper-snappers!!!

Actually I get almost as much done per hour now as I did 20 years ago. Partly I work smarter (than you) Partly I take the time to make the tooling that makes the job go easier and my tooling works right firsttime-everytime and I make fewer mistakes. Oh yeah, and I work 12hrs a day. Mostly because I flat love it and I don't have TV!

[Timothy Miller]

South

I sure as xxxx hope you're a better smith than hin, you're 36. Can't see an 82 year old getting too much work done

I don't think he ever really took the time to expand his skills outside of fishtail scrolls and dressing jackhammer bits. but during his hay day he was the only gig in town. He is more into playing with machine tools and coffee and cake these days. I should shut up because I love the man god forbid he saw this.

[Mainely,Bob]

Big fish,small pond huh?
In the unions I used to run across "journeymen" who had worked one place almost all their adult lives.Got their training there and knew only what the hands at those locations had taught them.IMO they were "journeymen" only because they had stayed on long enough at that job and were pulling "journeyman" wage.Some of them didn`t have near the skill set of a third year apprentice and would have had a hard time pulling above helper rate if they went somewhere else and had to prove their skills.
Good for them if they can wrangle the money.There is also something to be said for committing a large chunk of your life to staying in one place or job.
Doesn`t make someone a bad person.Lucky maybe,but not bad.Doesn`t make them a "journeyman" either.

As to the "Master" debaters.For that sort of thing to fly by me I need proof.
I see Danger,David,Rory,Grant,Larry,Young Dylan,etc turning out work(thru pics with them in the pics)and speaking of that work in an intelligent and informed way so I know it`s their work.They are all xxxx good at what they do and it would be for someone way above my pay grade to hang the appropriate title on them.
However,if you show up near where me and my friends are working and declare yourself a "master" anything that`s an open invitation to be tested,even if you have a sheepskin saying it`s so.In the working world here in New England it`s NOT show and tell,it`s roll up the sleeves,get to it and we`ll see when the day`s done.

The only widely agreed upon "master" we have up here is someone you can go to to get the proper thing to lure marine animals either into a trap or onto a hook.She has made it her life`s work to know what the fishermen need and how it needs to be stored,prepared and delivered on time in order for them to get the job done.Her business,trucks and cards say"The Bait Lady".She openly agrees that she is a "master" at what she does and responds warmly to the greetings from the docks touting her title and heralding her arrival.

[monstermetal]

I get it... And I agree with most of it. There was one time in my life I chose the "Master" title... Right out of high school I went to work at a shop and ended up the lead, we had jackets made and since I was the lead installer, I got the title "Master Installer" ..... I dont think I ever got so much grief over anything in all my life..

I hate titles.... I always fumble when someone asks me what I do or what I make..

My standard reply is "I can make anything but money" and I tend to call myself an Ironworker even though most people equate that with a guy building bridges. If its a pretty girl I'll call myself a Blacksmith because it sounds more interesting.. They might have met other Ironworkers but probably not another tatto'd smith

I do know one Master..... And no one will ever, ever argue that he is a Master... He is a Master and was the day he was born. That would be Chuck, Chuck Master... he is an Auctioneer in my home town

We see things diffrent, we think diffrent... If you have been given the title of Master I dont think its inappropriate to use it. I know three Master Blade smiths... And when I introduce them I say so... This is so and so, ABS Master Blade smith... I think by doing so it gives the person I am introducing them to a little background and sets the stage... Gives them Credibility... and they earned it. ABS Master is not something you can fake your way into....

[Mainely,Bob]

Ah,Master Blade smith.Now that one I can get behind!
The reason I say that is there is a real world test and your work does the talking for you.
I think anyone familiar with the requirements for that title would be willing to treat someone claiming that tile(with proof to back it) with the respect due them.

BTW Larry,you and others here may want to try introducing yourselves as being "A practitioner of magic".
You take ordinary steel,and clapped out iron,and through your will and hands turn them into useful objects,art and sometimes a miracle.
Sounds like a fair definition of magic to me. :)

[sawyer04]

Wow, this thread went buzzing over the top of my head, but I have smashed my thumb under a hammer and almost puked, I understand that one.

[Nazelhammers]

It’s been my understanding in colonial terms a master was someone who is in control of their on destine or someone who has stopped his travels to settled down and establish himself in his own shop. There is no pass or fail test for a master other than life itself and if life is the test I don’t want to fail. It’s not to say you are better than anyone else. What I was taught is a journeyman was someone who traveled from shop to shop and who worked for a master. The master being the person who owns the shop and the journeymen is a traveler who is looking to learn as much as he can from a master and then he moves on to another shop if he chooses. The master was the journeymen’s teacher. A person could spend their entire career as a journeyman; his duties would be whatever the master gave him to do. I guess in modern terms the master would be considered a teacher, boss of supervisor. Being a master didn’t mean you were good at what you did. You could be a bad teacher, boss, supervisor or master. I was also taught that a journeyman only became a master when he stopped his travels and he established himself in his own shop. Under the definition a journeyman could easily be better at a specific skill then the master. The term doesn’t only apply to Blacksmiths. It could be a cabinet make the butcher or candle stick maker.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

That's a viable position, no doubt. I'd be tempted to call that maybe the shop master or some such. "Master Blacksmith" carries a certain connotation. I've worked in a shop that was owned by a bookkeeper and he would have looked a bit foolish calling himself a master blacksmith, just wouldn't have been right either, would it?

[jeremy k]

Back to the original Question..... Who's your Master?.........That is a very good question I think everyone should really think about. I know there may be many many thoughts on this as far as whos qualified, who's not and such. I've thought about this many times since the original posting and I found I kept getting back to the person/people that I first saw that got my spark going in blacksmithing. There will always be arguments as whats the qualifications to be a "MASTER", but deep down inside I believe everyone can say or ask "Am I really a Master?". I feel if you are 100% satisfied with your work and expectations as far as skill at the present level your at, then yes you may call yourself a Master. Sure the "next one" will always be better, you may not have another chance at "the next one" of a certain project, but if you strive to do your best and really truely give it you'r all, then in your own way you are YOUR OWN MASTER - not comparing to others at all. The ones I see as Masters are those that are 100% in what they do. One may do great work now, but later the work will be better, as experience prevails. I truely believe one can answer this question themselves with no argument, as far as who a Master is if one looks at the work involved. One can say - Wow that's awesome blacksmithing... He's a Master... when it may only be, that that person has never experienced that type of work or process. Maybe I'm just babbling, but a Master to "me" is one that does the best he possibly can under the circumstances of tools available and knowledge at hand. Am I a Master? Thats a matter of opinion, some will say yes, some will say no, I do what I can do, and I try to do it as if it's my own. - Jeremy K

[David Browne]

That's a viable position, no doubt. I'd be tempted to call that maybe the shop master or some such. "Master Blacksmith" carries a certain connotation. I've worked in a shop that was owned by a bookkeeper and he would have looked a bit foolish calling himself a master blacksmith, just wouldn't have been right either, would it?

Grant (Zappa),
I'm finding it increasingly difficult to take you seriously with that sarcastic one brow smirk and all the mustache twirling....

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

"mustache twirling"? Here I thought he was holding a joint!

[David Browne]

Oh, you're right! Now I feel much better.:unsure:

[Mainely,Bob]

Now this is just the way I read it.
The guy that owns the shop is the SHOP OWNER or CEO.
In today`s language a MASTER either;
1-Owns slaves,which is illegal but still persists according to the media.
2-Has a flunky tagging around after him(likely named Igor) saying"Yes Master" who serves as a sort of low tech yes man.
3-Holds a ceremonial title such as Master of Ceremonies or Master at Arms.
4-Holds the rank of Master Chief in the Navy.
5-Has PROVEN to have mastered ALL the skills of the trade he draws a wage from(even part time) or is retired from.
Master Blade smith is a good example.(thanks Larry)


I am familiar with the colonial term about which you`re speaking and have never heard it used outside a period museum or shop where everybody dresses in period clothes and uses hand tools only.

I think the term "Master blacksmith" may be viewed by most blacksmiths like cowboys viewed the term"Fastest gun".It`s an invitation to have other pistoleros come gunnin` for ya and they are reluctant to use it no matter how sharp their skills.

[Sask Mark]

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode, are you the master of 'Your Domain?' (and that doesn't mean you have your own website...)

[youngdylan]

My tuppence on the master thing, I kinda see it used mostly as an advertising thing to hoodwink the uneducated public. I guess thats one of the reasons why it can be looked down on.

Over this side of the pond (were it all started) the apprentice/journeyman/master thing has more or less died as a formal sytem of titles. Thanks to the smithing revival of the 70's/80's the sytem has started as an informal backdoor thing, I guess it's a pretty natural system of hierachy but we don't really use those terms over here (apart from in adverts or on websites)

That said, and for once without taking the p***, I do know that history is a lot bigger for some of you lot than us (we trip over it daily) and I guess that does explain some of it's usage. It's kinda odd that there's no issue with the apprentice but ther is with the journeyman/master words.

Me? I'm personally not a***d about ever being called a master. Respect from my piers, paying approval from my customers and the odd muttered grunt of approval from the old genuinely time seved guys (and gals ... gotta say that or Beth will be down on me ) really gets me all glowing inside.

[basher]

I think the word master is held in too great an awe .
We are after all talking about a person who has done an apprenticeship and worked for someone else and then started there own shop........thats all .
I think a majority of people of people working in steel for the length of time many of us have would fit into that catagory in one way or another .
After 16years on the path of steel I have defiantly mastered some of my craft , the bits I make my own I excell at, I am less familiar with other bits .
Plumbers and carpinters and electricians are referred to as masters of there trade after 5 or so years .......

It is all very well being all "Grasshopper" about it and there is always more to learn but if some of the people here are not referred to as masters then they are doing dis service to them selves .

Artist blacksmith , master blacksmith if the cap fits why not wear it .

[Nazelhammers]

I often describe myself as being a Yankee too. The term Yankee has a meaning more than just in baseball. If I was speaking about baseball I so as heck wouldn’t be using the term Yankee. They beat my Phillies last year in the World Series. Just to set the record straight - My meaning for baseball is Phillies for football it’s Eagles and hockey it’s Flyers. The tread was only an attempt to get an idea of how some of us got our start in blacksmithing. What a tangled web of bull this turned out to be. It just seems I can’t get a word in edge wise. Time to move on and get over it, there was no meaning of disrespect toward anyone who thinks they are better than me. If it makes anyone feel better they can consider themselves better than me and I won’t argue their point. Just call me Igor.

[Timothy Miller]

To me a master blacksmith has mastered the trade. They may be a specialist such as a tool making or ornamental ironwork or artist. But that person could walk into any forge shop and get to work being productive. They have a true grasp of how hot metal moves. They could make a wrench or forge a acanthus leaf or understand how to replicate an old piece of hardware that walks in their door. It may not be the best wrench or leaf ever made but it looks good and works well. They may have never made a wrench before but they can do it. They should be able to make modify and maintain their own tools. When looking at old work they should know full well the how the original was made what kinds of materials and processes were used. This person could tell you reasonably off the top of their head how much metal and time would be needed to do the job. Their work should be well proportioned and well finished and free from defects. They should be able to make a reasonably good drawing of the work they are going to make, one that can be understood by helpers and assistants. They should know two or even three ways of doing a job. This day and age they should have a good working knowledge of electric welding ARC MIG and TIG as well as forge welding, and know what is appropriate for what kind of work they are working on. They should be able to direct other workers in a complex task to finish understanding the ability's and limits of each worker. They should be able to any job of a worker under them perhaps not as well but do a respectable job.