Another question from the beginner

[gonefishin]

Stock removal, still stuck on bevels.

For the secondary edge bevel (the cutting edge), is that done with files, or is that made from sharpening it with oilstones, soapstones, etc. AFTER everything is done?

And using files the correct way would be to stroke it forward-lift and bring back-then push forward again?
Or would it be stroke forward-stroke back-stroke forward-stroke back without lifting the file?
Just making sure on this part, I just read somewhere that stroking back and forth with a file without lifting up on it is the incorrect way to use it.

[bigfish]

glad i can finally be of some assistance to someone here instead of being the one who asks questions all the time as far as the proper use of files i believe nakedanvil has a thread on here somewhere about it but i'll be darned if i can find it but the best i can recall you should have the handle in your left hand and only pull toward you hence the term "draw filing"going back and forth can damage your file and the piece you are working on by holding shavings in the file you should knock the shavings out frequently and there was also a reference to using soapstone on your files to keep the shavings from sticking to them.As far as the bevels go i will freely admit i am no expert but filing seems to give me the most uniform edge.
hope this helps some :)

[John B]

A little bit of information on files and filing.

Files cut on the forward stroke, Lift off for the return stroke, this also help to clear the filings and stop scratches appearing.

If the file starts to hold bits of steel in the teeth, this is called pinning, and these 'pins' should be removed by use of a file card, a wooden block with short wires on a backing attached to the face of the block, this is used in a side to side motion in line with the teeth

One way to help prevent pinning is to rub the file cutting face with chalk or soapstone, filling the teeth before using them

Files should also be "run in" by using on a softer material such as brass for a while, (thats why Farriers old used files are ideal for 'smiths to use)

To succesfully file you need to clamp the workpiece solidly, adopt a solid based stance and work at a comfortable height using the full length of the blade and trying not to rock it, unless you need to file a profile, it can be quite difficult to file flat until you master the technique

As with all finishing processes start with a coarse cut file to remove stock, reducing to finer cut files as you finish the piece,

Draw filing is also an excellent method to remove and finish stock, as it implies, the file is held at 90 degrees to the workpiece cutting on the pulling stroke rather than the normal pushing one.

Practice is essential, and one major thing to do is to make the piece you have to file with a minimum amount of material left on to remove.

I hope this helps, the techniques are for general workshop usage, Bladesmithing may be different, and I bow to the more experienced in this area.

I am sure others will have their own take on this and add to it, or inform me where I have been going wrong we can all learn from others experience which is what the site is all about

[pkrankow]

I think "draw filing" is something different. I believe that it is using the file at an angle to the work pushing (or pulling) the file sideways to remove material quickly and evenly. Someone with more experience can explain this better.

Running the file backwards across your work will dull and damage the file prematurely. Historically files were hand made and very expensive, so improper use was a serious waste. Modern files are much less expensive, so this is less of an issue, but why get significantly less use out of a good tool for not learning how to use it?

Phil

Thanks John B

Edited February 17, 2010 by pkrankow

[John B]

I think "draw filing" is something different. I believe that it is using the file at an angle to the work pushing (or pulling) the file sideways to remove material quickly and evenly. Someone with more experience can explain this better.

Running the file backwards across your work will dull and damage the file prematurely. Historically files were hand made and very expensive, so improper use was a serious waste. Modern files are much less expensive, so this is less of an issue, but why get significantly less use out of a good tool for not learning how to use it?

Phil

Thanks John B

Thank you too Phil,

Drawfiling seems to be a contentious area, it can depend on the type of file being used, and the angle of approach, if the handle is to the right, ot to the left, it all affects the cutting geometry, and then there are single cut and double cut, (A piece of emery cloth wrapped around the file blade helps solve some of the problems.)

And as you said, I think it was Grant who had firm instructions on this, hopefully he or someone else if it was not him will reiterate their approach to drawfiling.

I too could not find the relevant thread.

[pkrankow]

Bigfish, you have a lot of info there, but I think the forum ate your formatting which is why I misunderstood you.
Phil

[gonefishin]

Alright so making sure I got this straight,

Push the file away from you then lift and return, and push the file away from you again.

And on the cutting edge, you just hone it with stones, you dont actually need to make it using sanders/files/etc.

Thanks fellas, been working on a hell of a lot of practice blades lately and everything keeps on making more sense and gets easier, except the bevel process. If you do find a video of someone filing the bevels and everything, please let me know.

Again all of you blokes have been a great help B)

[pkrankow]

I don't think the cutting edge was discussed. I would expect that with a fine cut file you can rough the edge out and finish with stones. There is not much on the edge, and when hardened the file won't bite well on the edge, so stones may be best all the way.

I do use a diamond file for dressing all sorts of edge tools, and it will hog off a lot of metal and reshape an edge quite quickly if you want it to.

Phil

[John B]

Hi Moxie,
Yes you are on the right track with the straight forward filing.

I don't know whether you have seen this posted by Sukellos on the Blacksmithing section under How do you forge items with a smooth surface post 22 a thread which is relevant to your questions.

To Quote the piece

As you forge remember that any hammer mark you put in iron is a hammer mark you will have to somehow remove. A lot of the smiths mention files. To that I will only add that, lacking a good belt sander, draw filing will give you a pretty smooth surface if done correctly. It's an old traditional method and not taught in most metalworking classes anymore.

Start with a good quality, file. I've found that the HF FSOs just won't cut it. Use a brand new file if you have one. I use a double cut to remove most of the uglies and then a mill bastard to finish.

Have a good handle on the file and/or wear gloves.

Keep a file card or bronze wire brush and a soapstone or chalk or a piece of "sheetrock" handy.

Rub the soapstone/chalk on the file to start. Try to fill all of the cuts in the file.

Clamp the blade down to a block of wood. I like to clamp it to the edge of a 2''x4" and then clamp the 2x4 in a vise at about chest height if possible. You might want to arrange it so you can sit down to do this. It takes a lot of time.

Stand at one end or the other of the blade and hold the file flat across the blade at a 90 deg angle. The blade and the file should form a cross at the opposite end of the blade from where you stand. Grasp both ends of the file and pull it toward you while applying pressure downward.

If the file teeth get clogged up with metal filings it will scratch the blade. Clean often with the file card, or bronze brush and re-apply the chalk.

Get more beer, you're gonna need it. This will take awhile.
End of quote,

The only thing I would like to add is that the file must be used in the correct relationship for the cutting action in drawfiling to take place, normally with the handle to the left. Try a test run first to confirm this before you start working the blank.