Strine Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 Whoopie, I found how to get the newly posted photos and found these. Posted by Apprenticeman...nice job. But...there's always a but (1 t), they are labelled as "perfect" scrolls. I would maintain that perfection, which I have interpreted here as beauty, is in the eye of the beholder and there are probably quite a few ways to interpret perfection. The eye that I am beholding suggests the top one is more perfect than the second. Beyond the straight section of bar the "line" flows smoothly and elegantly to the tip. Look closely at the second scroll and this point is very obvious. But hey! you might think the second is perfect for one reason or other...no worries mate. Then again we might be talking about the mighty 1.618 In which case I'd like to see some layout details or development formula before accepting the perfectness. So, after I thank Apprenticeman for holding his work up for scutiny the question begs. What is the perfect scroll? For mine, you have my two bobs worth, I like the smooth line and absolutely detest and am disgusted with the scroll with the straight bit on the end. (quick check on photos...phew). Maybe I like it a bit more open. I'm a field mathematician so a cubic spiral or the like gets me going too. Oh, one thing I aim for or appreciate is a continually diminishing gap or space withing the scroll. Any other thoughts on perfect scrolls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 I really like the first one, too. I like scrolls to have the gap match the steel, both tapering smoothly down. They look more organic that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 The first scroll is very nicely done. The line is a continuous curve, the taper in the steel is continuous and appropriate, the edges are soft and invite the eye right down the flowing lines, and the negative space is JUST right. There are two major problems with the second scroll in execution that make it less appealing to the eye. One is the flat spot just as the scroll starts... the piece bends, then straightens, and then bends again into the beginning of the scroll. That is an interruption to the flow. The second big problem is readily apparent when you look at the negative space -- the area between the iron. As your eye goes around the curve, you can see that the open space widens and narrows and widens and narrows, in conflict with the inward direction of the scroll. In other words, the top scroll is better executed than the bottom. It isn't a matter of which shape scroll is "better". The "perfect golden mean scroll" is not the only beautiful scroll and not always appropriate. Continuous and deliberate flow are a lot of what make a scroll beautiful or not. Well-forged iron is beautiful. And the bottom scroll is some beautiful iron. However, forged iron is almost always a frame. That is... it bounds space somehow. This "negative space" must also be controlled. In fact, some of the stuff we find most compellingly beautiful is so because the artisans did such wonderful things AROUND space. They forged air! Thank you for sharing these very nice pictures! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 The term, "perfect scroll", may come from the concept of the spiral of squares. I'd have to dig out my Trigonometry text to explain it fully but loosely translated, (and I may be using the wrong term) the spiral or square starts out at a value of 2 and for each revolution the spiral enlarges in size as well as diameter (I think!) by the square of the previous revolution. You can take it further and get into fractals but then it gets just plain gawdy if you ask me LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 Top scroll is really nicely done. All the bottom scroll needs is some tweaking and flattening of the sides. Smoothing out the hammer marks would help both. Well done- congrats. chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Awww, you guys honor me BIGTIME. Yeah, I was doing the second scroll while the pushy electrician was putting in my lights, so I really didn't have the concentration on the second. I will tweak it a little and see if I can't correct it to be as close if not EXACTLY perfect as the other. And I do agree, blacksmiths not only forge steel, we forge air as well, and depending on the peice, fire, earth, and water too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith58 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Just putting my two cents: They are both good work! Remember this it's the imperfections that make it perfect. If you revised the two photos and showed progression in skills, people would say, see, it got better with practice! When talking about perfect scrolls: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I had an old smith describe to me the perfect scroll has a turn and a half on it scroll. Any more and it too busy, any less and it's incomplete! I have found this to be a profound statement. Using this technique (1 1/2 turns) with a standard two sided taper, the negative space makes a really cool snub end illusion. All in all, your scroll work is really nice. Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob H. Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Yup, I like the first best. And, I like the discussion. I kept going back to the pictures so I could follow up on what was being said. Good learning experience. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Thank you very much. As soon as I feel better(dang flu) i'll be able to get back in the shop, and I might try and work on the bottom one a little more. The thing is, they are both the same size, and are on the ends of one bar. They look symmetrical, like same height and width, but I will work on them both to see if I cannot turn them into even more perfect scrolls. And yes, there is that Japanese thing going on with the slight imperfection making it perfect, haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 If you ever start making a few scroll forms - so several similar scrolls can be made more quickly - the negative space concept really becomes very apparent because the scroll is rolled over the jig. I once did a little experiment, which was to free hand a small scroll to the best of my ability. I tacked it to a piece of angle iron, which was clamped in the vise, then I made a fresh one and rolled it about the scroll I had just made. It looked quite wrong - but I tacked it to another piece of angle and kept going. What happens is that every other size looks "right" (up to a certain point, then the center gets too big). The form is the negative space inside a properly made scroll. I've studied the pics in detail and think the top one is perfectly executed - for all the reasons Ed already gave. This type of scroll would be very hard to do on a form so accurate freehanding is about the only way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Well, as funny as this might sound. If I needed to turn out scrolls like that, I would take a peice of flat plate, the starting thickness of the last biggest part of the scroll, and then forge it into a taper matching the exact taper(or dang close) to the taper in the negativespace. then you would just curl up the flat peice of tapered to match plate right inside of the scroll or freehand into another perfect scroll again, and bam, all you would have to do is taper the square or round right and insert it into the flat bar scroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjorn Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Wowzers, I realy like the broken edges, especialy on the first one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Broken edges, what do you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Not speaking for Bjorn but I think he means the way the corners of the square stock are softened by the hammer's blows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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