rakessler Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hello All. Love the site ,information is incredible. Helping me to build tools and such. I was hoping that the would be a section on "traditional joinery and work" . That is kind of where I want to take my work and with any division or level of blacksmithing there are always these that have done it before. Have the tooling to do it better, faster, and easier. I hope I would be able to find some of those that have similar interest. I know I need to get my new shop finish , but while I may not be pounding I still can be learning. "Like what in blazes is a MONKEY tool ":confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstash Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Monkey tool is used to set the shoulder on a tenon and to straighten the the tenon. The mating shoulder will have a slightly radius so that the tenon won't have a sharp shoulder. The Monkey Tool will also have a vent hole so that you can drive the tenon up tight without compressing air in the tight alignment hole. I drive though Whitesburg about once a month. Maybe I can stop by your shop on one of my trips. Ironstash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I think the term 'traditional joinery' really should be termed 'period joinery' - but that's semantics. There are a number of ways that a blacksmith can join multiple pieces together. Rivets, welding, tenons and mechanical to name a few. Of those, some joinery is purely for the connection, others are for the connection and to counter the forces of tension and compression (Sag in a gate for example) The shoulder of a tenon should fit flush against the piece that it is inserted into. To get that clean shoulder, a monkey tool (a bar with an appropriately sized hole in it) is driven over the tenon and onto the tenon's shoulder - thus dressing the shoulder for a good fit. 'Traditional' joinery can be anything from crude tapers driven into a hole in another bar and headed over to much more complex arrangements. I think it can be viewed as a skill, a science and an art form - verging on to a quest like status for some. Buckle up, it can be a bumpy road... but one worth going down. Here's my .02 - I'm sure there will be a lot more from some of the other smiths. 1.) Never fuller to the full depth that you require when you butcher to isolate the mass to draw out for a tenon. You can draw the cut down a little into the tenon in the drawing out. This will cause the tenon to fail later 2.) Always create a slight shoulder to a tenon rather than a 90 degree transition. Cracks appear from 90 degree transitions - usually after riveting the tenon in place! 3.) Chamfer the edges of the hole in your monkey tool (see above) 4.) chamfer the edges of the hole that your tenon will fit into 5.) The edges of your butcher should be round not sharp - see point 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob JS Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 looking forward to reading more on this subject - maybe someone knows of a web page with illustated demonstrations of all the differect types of joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrous Beuler Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 rakessler, a "monkey tool" is really nothing more than just a stick, sometimes a mere blade of grass. Monkees are smart and a long time ago one of 'em figured out if you shove a stick into a hole in a termite mound and then pull it back out it is covered with termites and you can lick 'em of and then go back for more. Now, not ALL monkeys is that smart, some of 'em gets it and some don't. Some of 'em watch and watch and just get irate and start to flingin' stuff around but don't get with the learnin' curve and get their own stick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Hey Dan. Can I have a drink of what ever your drinkin'? LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Here are some examples of a couple of tenons and some shots of a monkey tool. You will note that one of the tenons has an offset shoulder to it. That shoulder will rest (usually) below the tenon to offer support to the bar by trying to stop it from sagging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 rakessler, a "monkey tool" is really nothing more than just a stick, sometimes a mere blade of grass. Monkees are smart and a long time ago one of 'em figured out if you shove a stick into a hole in a termite mound and then pull it back out it is covered with termites and you can lick 'em of and then go back for more. Now, not ALL monkeys is that smart, some of 'em gets it and some don't. Some of 'em watch and watch and just get irate and start to flingin' stuff around but don't get with the learnin' curve and get their own stick... A monkey tool gets its name from a Frenchman called Monsieur Key. It was originally called Monsieur Key's tenon shouldering tool. Later it became Monsieur Key's tool. Then Mon. Key's tool (Mon. is the abbreviation for Monsieur) And then Monkey tool.... And now how about land in Florida?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Aspery Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 A lot of the nautical stuff is related to astronomy. The 'Dog' days of summer referred to a particular star that could be seen at that time of year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASMITH Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 It's from old sailing ships that the term "Freeze the balls off a brass monkey" came from! A brass monkey was a plate that had slight depressions in it and sat on the deck of the ship by the cannon. The bottom row of cannon balls sat in these small depressions and then other rows were stacked on top, pyramid style. In the winter, if the temperature dropped low enough the brass plate would shrink slightly and the bottom row of cannon balls would come out of the depression and the weight of the others stacked on top would cause them to break loose from the plate and roll across the floor of the deck. Hence the expression! So now ya know! Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 A monkey tool gets its name from a Frenchman called Monsieur Key. It was originally called Monsieur Key's tenon shouldering tool. Later it became Monsieur Key's tool. Then Mon. Key's tool (Mon. is the abbreviation for Monsieur) And then Monkey tool.... And now how about land in Florida?? I glad you cleared that up as I was trying to find something on the web..thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Terry, Of course that is nonsense, as documented here:snopes.com: Brass Monkeys Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Terry, Of course that is nonsense, as documented here:snopes.com: Brass Monkeys Ed you need to take what snopes says with a grain of salt...its just a man and wife operation. . here is a good read on snopes Is Snopes.com infallible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Leppo Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 It really doesn’t make sense that the shot would be stacked in pyramids on the deck of a rolling ship. These pyramid stacks are unstable, and the shot would be rolling about the deck in the slightest swell. If a rolling ball would happen to go down a hatchway, it could conceivably pop right through the hull of the ship.Term: brass monkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 when I first heard the cannon ball thing some 40 years ago it was not cannon balls on a ship they were next to the cannon at a fort ...don't know when the ship got in on the monkey tray...must be a snopes thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Jimbob: Yes, Snopes is not the final authority, but their descriptions of what is wrong with that legend is the clearest and they always show their references, which is why I posted it rather than others. If you need more debunking, just go to these other sources:Term: brass monkey"Freezing the balls off the brass monkey," a Navy phrase about cannon balls-Fiction!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_monkey_(colloquial_expression) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I'm sorry Ed ...Snopes just happens to be a pet peeve with me as way too many people use it as the last word on anything...I think everyone should look farther than snopes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratel10mm Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Apparently, brass monkeys were only found on the large, (self?) important ships of the line. Ones with Commodores & Admirals on board, that sort of thing. As I understand it, in Nelson's time it was normal for ship's captains to spend their own money on whatever improvements - practical or pretty - they felt fit. Which is a possible explanantion for why it might not be a myth. As I understand it, a brass monkey is not just a plate laid on the deck, but more a framework holding all the shot in place. However I've not looked at the debunking sites linked above, so I bow to superior knowledge if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredW Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 A bit off topic aren't we. Dad was a sailor, WWII, and he gave me the same explanaition of freezing the balls off a brass monkey. He was not infalable and I am sure we will really never no the truth. Now lets hear some more on tenons and other joinery. Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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