dps9999

hey guys quick question when you do a cryo treatment i liquid nitrogen is there any pre cooling or anything like that or just dunk the blade in the liquid nitrogen, Alos i have heard people say to leave it in for 2 hours and some say over night????different steel different time? or just some people do it differently than others/ thanks guys!

Guys i am not talking about liquid nitrogen if i was yes i would spend the money to get a dewar and do things VERY carefully with a lot more research into it. As i said i dont have the money for a dewar wich is the reason i am not even thinking of liquid nitrogen now and not any time in the near future. At first i read some people and some one also told me the dryice method doesnt really make any difference in the HT. Obviously people here thought difference so did some more reading and alot of people say it does work quite good. After Steve (and others here ) brought it up i did more reading both on the internet and on some of the other forums. and plenty of people say they use the dry ice with acetone (some use kerosene, others use alcohol and say its safer) many have said you simply fill a cooler with the acetone alcohol or kerosene and slowly drop a few pieces of dry ice into the mix until it cools enough where you can put larger chuncks in with out having a huge reaction. If there is a safety issue with this please tell me what it is.....i can only make decisons and try things based on the info i have so if i am going to do something wrong please point it out. Also i have read just placing the knife between 2 chunks of dry ice (no acetone alcohol kerosene) can work

Thank you steve i completely agree with you on that one. i dont want to take on too much especially that i havent done ANY steel in a oven yet. Most of the knives i do are like hunter's camp...ect that kinda thing. how ever i do want to make 2 kitchen knives...yeh of course i could make them from anything even the 1084...wich might be fine for a chef that takes the time to care for that knife everyday. but for example one kitchen knife if it comes out good will go to my mother and she will not take the time to "care" for it besides washing it. and i had read that 440c is a good one to start with but then i read that it tends to stain from certain foods more than other steels thats why i didnt know if it is worth it to get the 154cm or another steel and start with that to get a better result....i think i may just get the 440c and if need be i can always make another from different steel down the line unless you have a opinion that may be better.....Steve also i dont want you to think i "gave up easily" with the cryo thing. i have put alot of reading resarch and work into every knife i made. i just knew i wouldnt be able to aford the liquid nitrogen container. and i really did think the dry ice thing wasnt worth the time money or effort as i was told that dry ice doesnt make any significant difference at all...i guess everyone here disagrees so i deffinitly will try it. I already did some reserching as to where i can get the dry ice (as i said the acetone is no problem) but the closest place i can get the dry ice is about 45 mins away (i am still looking ther may be some place closer but havent found it yet) i do have a question (or 2) First the cooler i use to mix the acetone and the dry ice can it be just big enough to fit the knife? or is it kinda like oil quenching where you want a bucket much bigger than the blade? Second is there any rule of thumb on how much dryice you use for how much acetone? I am also assuming that once you mix the dryice with the acetone it doesnt last very long maybe just long enough to do the treatment...am i right on that? will the dry ice keep longer if i put it in the freezer...since i will have to go 45 mins to get it i dont want to have to do the trip every couple days....so if i buy extra and try and keep it in the freezer it should last a little while right?.....the only experience i have with dry ice is my gradmother used to send us steaks packed in dry ice and i know it did dissapeer even in the freezer but obviously not as quick as if you left it outside....i am just trying to figure out how much i can buy and "keep" at a time. i did do a search this morning and tried to get info on this somewhere but i couldnt find anything with these details in it, so i figured you guys got real world experience with it and maybe could help....if these questions are answered some where SORRY if that is the case please point me in the right direction

good info again but as i said the container for liquid nitrogen isnt a option right now cant aford it, i will try to do the dry ice.....but again the question that i asked no one has even touched on that subject......the cryo thing was something steve noticed i may have "given up to easily" wich now that you guys have said it is worth doing i will try, but the question was about a type of stainless not the cryo, i appreciate the info on the cryo but does anyone have a opinion on the original question?

thanks kozzy ill look into rentals, Charlotte....about ny goverment thinking everyone is a criminal..your deffinitly right,.... about the acetone...that isnt a issue i have lived here my whole life and you can get it everywhere....grocery stores, some pharmacy's.....i have a can downstairs i got 2 weeks ago at a harware store....that was never the issue that stuff is every where....i didnt think the dry ice acetone actually worked (i guess i was given bad info) and even that being said the original question ...was about what steel would make a good kitchen knife (take a look above)

Thanks guys all good info.....Steve if you (and others on this thread) think its worth it by all means i have no problem taking the time to find the dry ice (the acetone is very easy to find) i didnt know where to get the dry ice (ill check some grocery stores as some have suggested). I cant afford the liquid nitrogen right now well the ntrogen i probilly could afford but i hear the containers you need are a few hundred bucks (i just put everything i had on hand into the oven so just dont have what i would need for the nitrogen container YET) as far as dry ice and acetone ill deffinitly give it a shot. The info i was given was that doing it by dry ice and NOT liquid nitrogen was basicly a waste of time. But steve you and a few others obviously feel differently so ill deffintly start looking around for some dry ice. I can only work with the info i am given or find and didnt find too much "reliable" info on the dry ice method but then a pair of people that have given me good advice in the past said its not worth it so i wasnt going to bother. obviously now that may not be the case. so ill give it a shot and see what happens... thanks tho i wouldnt of tried it if you hadnt made a point of it.............however does any one have a opinion on the original question??? it was.....".So i was planning on ordering some 440c and 154cm to get started with. Most of the knives i do are hunter,camp, fighter style knife. However there are 2 people i would like to make a kitchen knife for. So i was reading about 440c and came across a article that said it can stain when used on acidic foods so probily not the best for a kitchen knife. I also read the 154cm is a improved version of 440c so does it still stain on acidic foods? if so does any one have any other suggestions for stainless that would be good as a kitchen knife. "

i have no access to liquid nitrogen, i was told it could be done with acetone and dry ice but was no where as good and has "questionable results".....and wouldnt know where to even start looking, as i said i was told that the dry ice / acetone doesnt really do much and exact words this person said probily not worth the effort it would take to find it. I live in a small town and wouldnt know where to start. if you have a different opinion about the dry ice and acetone by all means my ears are open.

Hey guys i am going to try and get into working with stainless. I just ordered a even heat oven. So i was planning on ordering some 440c and 154cm to get started with. Most of the knives i do are hunter,camp, fighter style knife. However there are 2 people i would like to make a kitchen knife for. So i was reading about 440c and came across a article that said it can stain when used on acidic foods so probily not the best for a kitchen knife. I also read the 154cm is a improved version of 440c so does it still stain on acidic foods? if so does any one have any other suggestions for stainless that would be good as a kitchen knife. please keep in mind i need a stainless that can either be quenched in air, plate or oil (parks50) and i have no access to any sort of cryo treatment. Thanks guys

Hey guys i wasnt sure if anyone was still watching my last post as its been a few days so i thought i would create a new one. So any way some one has agreed to loan me the rest of the money i need for a HT oven. So i started looking around and have a few questions. I see they have both 120 volt and 240 volt. I do have a 240 volt outlet but i only have one and its not in a good spot for me to put the oven so MAYBE i might go with one of the ones that are 120 volt the bigest i could find with 120 v is 18in deep. So performance wise whats the difference they both have the same max temp so am i right to assume the 120 would heat up slower? any one ever used one how long does it take to heat up? does any one have any opinions on evenheat vs paragon? and also what is a good stainless steel to heat treat? i am not going to have the option of any cryo freezing so thats out. so i may be able to buy alluminum plates for plate quenching. is there any good air hardening? basiclly what would be a good stainless for me to start with? any opions would be appreciated we try to keep a thread into only one thread, not posting pieces of it all over the place like a scavenger hunt. I deleted one post and merged the other one here, since you admitted it is the same thing. Please stop thinking of new ways to make us work more, we honestly have plenty to do already

i get it...everyone takes things differently i guess... i have used that phrase my whole life and never had a problem....either way that being said it is what it is i will try and be more literal

latticino...thanks i may start looking into something i could alter to suit what i need....there is a lady by me that owns a art/craft store, i actually found her when i first started making knives when i was looking for soft fire bricks locally (wich was unsucessful had to order them) but she had told me she had just sold a kiln, that was a while ago i completely forgot about this until a minute ago maybe its worth it to go talk to her.. frosty....i may be taking what your are saying wrong but you are cunfused because you had to assume what i ment by "huge budget"?, sorry i figured people would understand that "huge budget" means i dont have a $1000 to go buy a new HT oven. i have read and seen on forums that some one decides to sell a used oven (or any equipment) so i though maybe it was worth a shot. Again i may not understand what you ment in your post but usually a budget means you dont have alot of money....i guess that was my bad assuming most people understood that

Hey guys i am thnking about getting into new types of steel i really wanna do some stainless. BUT i am on a huge budget right now any one know where to get a cheap but decent HTing oven everything i can find is like 750- a few thousand i dont have that much right now. Even if any one is selling a used one as long as it works. if any one got any tips it would be apreciated!

Ok thanks guys i am going to try both of what you guys suggested...i haven't tried just using the edge or vertical...ill play around today and see what i can come up with. working with the wheel has proved a little bit of a challenge for me i thought since i could flat grind the wheel would be no problem although i have been practicing with slightly used belts and scrap steel bars and am starting to get the hang of it.....i THINK.........Steve what did you mean by " if you feel obligated to me, why not show me how to carve like you do, I cant do anything near that nice. please??? " i might be taking that wrong but i doubt that you wouldn't be able to do what i can do. maybe i misunderstood what you meant?

wow i have never see any of those looks very interesting.....i think you just showed me my next toy or toys

Thanks guys...steve maybe i wrote it wrong i didnt mean that you can only use one. what i ment is i have a flat platen and a small wheel and just got my first large wheel (10 in serated) and was wonder what else i can do with it besides hollow grinding and things like that steve you said you have a 44inch radius/cooled platen.... i have never heard of that is it like a rotary platen? also maye you guys can give me a lil tip one thing i am trying to acomplish is a long sweeping rounded grind line for example - see how the line that starts at the ricasso / choil area and sweeps down to tthe tip i was told most knives like this are done on a wheel. i was messing around with some scrap steel today and i cant get nothing anywhere near that good anyone got any advice on that?

Hey guys quick question. right now i have the kmg grinder with a flat platen and a small contact wheel. I just ordered a 10 in serated contact wheel.My question is what can i accomplish with the wheel that i couldnt with the platen. I ordered it for 2 things i want to try and learn how to hollow grind and also i want to be able to get those long sweeping rounded grind line that people keep telling me it is MUCH eaiser to do with a wheel. but i dont want to limit my self i want to try everything i can with this wheel and i am sure there are some things i am not thinking of that can be done with a wheel. thanks guys

ok i think i get the concept sounds very helpfull thanks

Yes your right EVERYONES might be too much to read probilly make 3 blades in that time..........No adapter what do you mean? and yes full tang...i have done a couple bolsters before and i mean a COUPLE but never did both front and back bolsters. i already got the front ones are since its a design i came up with that is the most intricate part of the blade. its not just a rounded bolster it has a few points to it that needed to align perfectly so i wanted to get that done first. What i have done as far as pins is use a tapered reamer on the holes of the bolsters and i have these lil "compression" clamps i think they are called to me its kinda like a clothes pin but stronger. I use that to hold the bolsters to the knife throw the pins in and if i get a lil bit of a wobble i peen very slowly constantly checking they are straight un till they stick (well thats how its suposed to go) this design gave me problems aligning the front ones finially got it on the 3rd attempt and 2nd set of bolsters that were made. so now i gota put another set of bolsters on the butt end of the tang and a piece of handle material inbetween the 2. At first glance it seems easier to get a good fit by doing handle material next then bolsters but what i read and saw a video was the opisate ...rear bolster and then cut and trim the handle material to slide into the middle and the more i think about it i think that might be the best way since when you put handle material in keeping in mind doing that way you gota get the size right i figure cut slightly over size and then trim tiny amouts at a times till it just slips in so i can kinda trim the handle material to fit once a bolster is cut there isnt any wiggle room you peen it straight down no sliding one way or another. any way iam rambleing but maybe that will help ya get what iam trying to do i am curious as to what adapter your talking about thomas.

Hey guys just want to get everyone's opinion on something. So the knife i am working on has both front and rear bolsters. So i got the front ones on so now i can either put the back one on and then slide the handle material into place or i can put the handle material on first and then the rear bolster. At first i thought putting the handle material on first and then doing the rear bolster. I figured it would be easier to get a tighter fit that way. But everything i have been able to find (mostly reading but one video too) does it where the rear bolster goes on first the the handle material is slid into place last. I guess the point is you can take tiny bits off the handle material off until it slips into place. Has any one done this and have any tips, advice, opinions on this? i am a lil torn.

ok thanks charlotte...i thought it was different where i got it had a "green chrome" and a "knife makers green"

Thanks guys gear hart....i should have mentioned i never use 36 grit. When i start a blade i cut out with a angle grinder and the put a 50 grit belt on a 4x36 belt grinder. I do what i can there then move to the KMG 2x72 grinder with a 80 grit (usually used but not "dead") for the profiling then move to fresh 80 grit for bevels and go up from there. I have been using a combinations of VSM ceramic (80), norton blue fire (120-220) also norton ceramic the ones with brown front and orange back also (220), i used to use hermes and klingspor for 400,600, 800. but recently started using the 3m trizact gators for (400-600) and norton norax (800), then i got deerfos (1200-2000) 3m trizact (2500) and norton norax (3000). I haven't tried the 3M micron belts but have seen them and do plan to try them soon. Like i said i am still new yeh i have made a few knives that i am happy with but definitely a beginner and still learning how to best use the KMG. When i started i would clamp the blade to a jig made from angle iron do just a couple passes and then take it off and go freehand. I did just enough with the jig that when i took it off and went freehand i could "feel" that flat part of the bevel to get a consistent angle....i am trying to get away from the jig all together but all of the grits following that initial grind are done freehand. Kozzy...As you were saying i think one of my problems on the last one was trying to go through the grits too fast i am going to slow it down on this one. I usually wipe the blade with my hand but didn't think of wiping it with a cloth between grits i am going to try that and hope it helps. Now I understand about going different directions with each grit so you can see when the last ones scratches are gone. Thats easy when hand sanding...one grit tang to tip next side to side and so one. Now going back to what i was saying above about still being a beginner on the KMG grinder. I can see maybe being able to go in different directions on the flat parts but you cant really do that with the bevels right? or am i missing something. And as you said do a final pass in a different direction even if i could do that on the flat parts wouldn't it take more than one final pass to "erase" lines go one way and make them go the other? Is there any tips on how to "see" or "tell" when the lines from the previous grit are completely gone. especially on the bevels when you cant go opisat directions on the grinder? i think that is the number one problem on the last one the flat parts were good not much scratches but the bevels had those lil faint grind lines. No one knows where "knife makers green compound" fits in the order with other compounds?

good call thanks frosty....i was wondering if last time i went through the belts to quick and not removing all the scratches from the previous belt. Its hard to tell. When hand sanding you can go in opisite directions on each grit to see when there gone but that is very hard to do on the grinder especially when bevels are involved (for me any way i am still new to knife making i've made a few but definitely still consider myself to be a beginner and have a kmg grinder for a few months now getting better with it tho).........that is a good point about stray grit. i didnt have any hot water in my house a few weeks back so i went a couple days with out a shower and even though i tried to brush stuff out of my hair you wouldn't believe it probilly 5 pounds of grinded metal came out of my hair! never thought about it getting caught on a belt or the blade tho

Hey guys so a couple weeks ago i had made a tanto style knife and tried to give it a mirror polish. It came out ok but not perfect you can still see small faint grind lines. So i did some more reading (actually LOTS of reading) and watching some vids. I did come across alot of good info but i do have 2 questions the best way for me to describe them is to first just tell you what i have to work with so...as far as the grinder goes and the higher grit belts i have 800 grit norton norax, 1200 and 2000 deerfos (the blue ones), 2500 3m trizact (regular not the gators), and 3000 norton norax. Then i have wet/dry sandpaper in 1000,1500, 2000. I also have those 3m pads (i dont know what they are called you can get them in auto part stores they are like sand paper but its a thin foam pad with grit on the front) one is marked 1200-1500 grit, i also have 3000 and 5000 grit. As far as compounds for buffing wheels i have emery, tripoli, yellow stainless, white rouge and red jewlers rouge (Not sure if white rouge or red jewelers comes first any ideas?). "knife makers" green (this is not the green chrome and the only place i found it is a jantz), and pink scratch less. So i was going to go all the way up the grits to 3000 on the grinder then go to the sand paper and the pads....wich is my first question if i go to 3000 on the grinder where should i start on the hand sanding 2000? maybe the 1200-1500 pad? or lower? after that on the buffing wheel i guess it depends where i am at with the scratches at that point to decide where to start...emery if its real bad but probilly tripoli? And the second question i have is i just recently got this "knife makers" green and the pink scratch less so i figure the pink scratch less would go last but i am not sure where the knife makers green fits in the order of compounds. Has anyone used this any ideas? My main questions are about the knife makers green and where to start on hand sanding but any bits of advice if you guys think i am doing something wrong would be appreciated. most of my plan has come from what i have read not on experience as i said i have only tried to mirror polish one blade and its ok but looking to improve on this one. thanks guys.....

Hey guys couldn't find much on this either on this forum or anywhere on the web really...well not anything helpful. So last time i ordered belts they didn't have what i had been using in the 600 grit range so i split the order and got 2 different kinds. I went to use one the other day and i noticed the joint on the belt was real loud ya know thump, thump, thump, and then i noticed it was making horizontal "divit" (for lack of a better word) lines. A couple of other people confirmed that these lines were probilly from the joint as i suspected. So ok i figured its a learning experience and take it as a loss and never order those belts again. So on the last order the 400 grit belts i got the exact same kind as i have been using (with no problems before this). So yesterday i went and grabbed one of the new 400's (again same exact kind i have used before) and the same thing happend with the lines apearing. So to test it i grabbed one of the same belts but i had left over from a previous order. I used one of the older ones and it was completely fine. Then i noticed even tho they are exact same belt the new ones are slightly different color (just a lil bit darker). All the new ones did this old ones didnt i dont get it. And now i got a bunch of belts that i really cant use and i dont even know wich ones to order. Does this happen alot where the same brand of belts have different outcomes? Is there ANYTHING i can do to fix this problem? Any advice would be really appreciated i am completly stumped and dont knoow what to do but these lines are deffinitly not acceptable. Thanks ahead of time guys

good call thanks thomas....some one hade said it was under the bladesmithing section i spent 2 days looking in there but anyway thats exactly what i needed and better than a list now i can see comments about the books thanks again!