Avadon

Gorgeous shop Kendall. Great build! Are you planning on insulating it? If not I think you might find out you have the same problem I do with my uninsulated building: hot as heck in the summer, cold as you can believe in the winter. Hard to work in such extreme temperatures. Actually the older I get the more I want my shop right around 65 year round. Right now it's 20dgs in the winter and 105dgs in the summer. I have to get my insulating going.

Not to change the subject to much but how do people exhaust their propane forges in tighter spaces. Do they use hoods over them or do some sort of point vacuum?

Selling them for years I tend to put both Hardy and Hardie in my descriptions. Seems like I see Hardy more than I see Hardie being used.

Unforgivun, if you have any clue what the piece of steel you used in your anvil was originally or what it came out of I would really like to find out. I've been looking for just such a piece for many years now. My grandfather used to have one like that for use as a utility anvil. Almost identical, including the side holes for punching/bending use. The only difference being the length of his was about 16 to18 inches instead of 14. It also had radiused edges and was not polished. If anyone recognizes what this part comes from and/or what it is I would truly appreciate it. I hammered my first steel flattening and playing with used framing nails, and such) on a bar if steel just like that as a child. Learning how to acquire one holds great sentimental meaning to me, I've been trying to find out for decades. Thanks

Sorry the ridiculously late reply. Thank you for your kind and generous compliments. I think one truth about the Brazeal Anvil style is that you learn so much about what an anvil and anvil stand really is that you can truly appreciate the fundamentals of blacksmithing. A lot of people throw an anvil on a stump and call it a day. But when you build an anvil from a block or weld pieces together you really do get a sense of the mass, improve your welding/fabrication skills and have something totally customized to your process. You can weld anything onto the anvil or stand that you think will help and you won't be frightened about damaging some really expensive anvil that was very difficult or expensive to acquire.

If I put a ding in my Gladiator I want to hang a noose from my rafters. If I put a ding in my Brazeal anvil I just make a look of shock and then laugh a little bit because I know I can TIG weld that hole in for about 50cents of S-7 rod from MSC Industrial. That makes the anvil a great learning tool where you will not be scared to go crazy, make mistakes, miss with the sledge and dent the face or do any other manner of abuse that are common during your learning.

One thing you might want to try is go to your local scrap yard. Most cities have one and if your on the outskirts it may be even worth an hours drive to get to one. They sometimes have giant chunks of steel that they are trying to get rid of at scrap prices. You'll pay far less at a scrap yard than you will at a steel yard. You may even be able to pick up materials for the anvil stand there as well.

Oh and I should mention, though the hardened anvil face is nice, it certainly isn't necessary. The Brazeal Bro's anvils weren't face hardened so if you don't have access/time/money to do the face hardening don't sweat it. Plus you can always do it later if you want to.

If you guys have any questions let me know. If I don't get back here soon enough just PM me with a nudge.

Looking good! That awning would only work/be permitted in warm climate. Where there is snow, building inspectors don't like to see the back of the awning merely connected to the side of the building. They like to see 4x4's not only in support of the front, but also in the back. I asked an inspector why once and he said it's so a snow load doesn't collapse the structure killing/crushing someone as they enter/exit the building. Just make sure the back of the awning has some some hurricane clips if it's the lumber itself isn't tied into the building. ;)

I don't know what type of equiptment you plan on mounting, but we have great success with "drop-in anchors". They are essentally an expanding nut that requires less depth than "red-heads" with the same pullout values. Typically a 6" slab is only nominally more expensive than a 4" slab, since there is basically no difference in the finishing or forming. You just have to pay for the additional concrete. That way you have 50% more thermal mass, and at least 1 1/2" depth to the rebar. The anchors are very resistant to shear and uplift, but im not so sure about vibration.

 

Frankly, unless you insist on it (and you should) the rebar grid will rarely be on what we call "chairs" (they look like a bigger version of the tripod that prevents your pizza from touching the top of the box). The rebar grid is often set on rocks and other crap spaced so far apart that it barely supports its own weight. Then the concrete guys trample it during the pour so that the tubing is smashed to the gravel. This should be prevented if you want the best performance from your system. I am seriously understating the importance of this step.

 

Photos are nice, but rarely provide enough detail to be sure of the tubing location. Especially since you can't measure to the outside of the slab once the walls are built (except in doorways). It really is easy to find the tubing with a digital thermometer if you know which direction the loops run. That being said, it makes me vibrate a little any time a hole is drilled. Best to section off mounting locations.

 

Good luck with your project!

I hear yah. I've seen people just lay the rebar grid on the ground, right ontop of the insulation, before pouring the slab. What good does this do? Virtually none. I will insist on chairs and perhaps even something stronger if I think the guys are going to crush them during the poor. I saw those digital thermometers and they aren't terribly expensive.

I'll probably pound some rebar behind the slab where the runs are. Then when the monolithic is poured. Transfer those rebar spots to chiseled lines/notches on the inside footer wall. I got to imagine that would probably land me with 1/2" of each line as far as accuracy.

im confused Av, you say you want to avoid having to pre-plan future equipment emplacements, yet you are actively chasing down ways to permanently install fixed anchor points at fixed locations and spacings to bolt down your gear well in advance of actually placing that gear.  that seems like more preplanning(to say nothing of material and installation costs) than providing whole sections of floor with no pex that can be drilled at will, and asking the contractor to provide a detailed as-built drawing of the layout, and leaving yourself some visual markers on the surface.  plus you leave yourself open to that network of anchors not fitting what you want to bolt down in the future unless you comit to building a mount for each one.

 

that said, i spoke with one of my co-workers who recommended looking at using Nelson Studs welded to the bottom of a thick enough plate set flush into the surface of the concrete, and then you can weld your mounts onto that and grind them off if you have to.  gives you more flexibility with your actual attachment points than the fixed anchors because you are not constrained to a single point.

 

http://www.nelsonstud.com/Portal/Portals/0/pdf/h4l.pdf

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I don't want to have to plan out hard points or anchoring stations/positions. But I was curious though about anchors that you don't have to drill.. i.e you just glue to the floor. Maybe you were confused about that intention? The only thing I want to be concerned with during the slab is making sure I know exactly where the pex is. I think i'm going to make notches on the footer wall so that I can string line between and know exactly where the pex is. No pictures, no measuring, should be easy to know where that pex is at all times. Then I'll also make notches on the ends for where the loops will be and that whole area will be a no drill area.

I agree that putting anchors in the concrete a head of time is huge amount of planning. I'm just not feeling that. Chances are it might not even light up exact. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. Those nelson studs look great, but I'm hoping to find an anchor that I don't even have to drill for.

Thanks for all the good advice everyone. I'll definitely be researching those simpson strong ties. :)

The slab heating is usually done with several zones and they are fed by manifolds, that keeps the slab evenly heated but also provides a way of shutting off a section if a leak develops

As for mounting equipment, if you use an industrial adhesive to glue down a mounting plate you get a large contact area for the adhesive. If the footprint of the equipment is say 3ft by 4ft, gluing down a steel plate of the appropriate thickness would give 12 square feet. A good adhesive would be extremely difficult to break away with that much bonding area. Im sure there are some experts with adhesives that can make some suggestions.

Yes this thread has more than convinced me to do the pex in the slab. As this is my last shop (I intend to die here on this property) it makes no sense not to do it. I don't want to be 65yrs old and kicking myself every winter for not having had it done and then desperately needing it because my circulation is totally shutting down. Ounce of prevention=pound of cure.

In the last year or two I took a lot of my small stuff.. bench grinders, buffers, etc. and build a small box 2'x2' under the legs of the stand. Lined it with 6mil vapor barrier and poured it level with concrete. It's just light enough you can still move it easily with a hand truck but to heavy to move when it's operating. It's worked quite well so far. Of course things like vices, and tables probably need something more like the adhesive as there are prying/torsional forces on them.

Does anyone have links to the anchors that you don't have to drill for? I can't seem to find them.

It's good to -40 in a 50-50 mix and then it won't swell and bust things, just get slushy and hard to move.

Amazing! Well worst it could ever get here is down to -5 maybe -10 in a very extreme freak chill. We are a hardiness zone 5.

And do you happen to know is that ethylene glycol or propolyene gylcol that they use?

Glycol is used in the hydronic systems around here.

is it impossible for that stuff to freeze?

Hey does anyone know how does one prevent underfloor pex heating from freezing and bursting? Do they put antifreeze in the lines? For example, what are the fail safes should your building heat fail and the floor heating be at a point where it is not circulating?

Thanks Sask Mark. I could definitely see where a heated ramp is not even a luxury but something mandatory. If you had even a small bit of ice you might not be able to get vehicles out and salting ramps is messy and throws the salt everywhere. Nice Drawing, very detailed. I doubt I'll bring many vehicles into this shop as I don't really work on cars. At most I may weld on a vehicle/trailer/etc for a customer but that's an extremely rare occurrence one that hasn't even happened so far. I'm going to build a garage for my vehicles on the other side of my property. A very small garage basically just big enough to fit two cars with little clearance. I'm a big "park the car outside kind of guy and live in the shop." I grew up working and basically spending tons of time in workshops so they are basically like living rooms to me with toys. :)  Thank you for all the information.

what if you ever had to move it?  or sell it?

 

Av,

 

thats the beauty of the buffer zone, you only have to plan so far ahead as to say 'no pipes within 6 feet of the walls', then you can drill with impunity within that zone, just dont stray outside of it.

 

i had thought about recommending putting some kind of protection over the tubes, angle iron as you also proposed, or a piece of flat steel, or coloring the concrete directly above the pipes so the drill cuttings will show that you are about to hit pipe before you get there.  but that will add another item to your budget that can be avoided.

 

edit: pricing can vary widely by location when it comes to construction, you would be better served contacting a local contractor who performs this kind of work and asking them for a rough quote.  they may be able to settle some of your questions as well.

Yah I'll see if my contractor can do this or if he subs it out. I wouldn't think it would be to expensive. Pex is pretty cheap. I saw 300' rolls all over ebay and they weren't that bad off. Even the largest regular was like $260.00.  I'm guessing off the top of my head the whole thing could be done, at least material wise for under 1 grand even with labor. But I'll find out.

Thanks for the help.

You can use a good adhesive caulk to hold your equipment in place rather than drilling holes in the slab.  I have my Big Blu 155 Max and my 8" post vise glued down that way and they both stay in place.  The post vise has a 15" square base for the stand.

I heard about that stuff.. those adhesives really work that well? What are they called again and where do you find them?

Can anyone give me a rough cost basis for this? Or at the very least some comparables. 

if there is pressure in the line the water will make itself evident, if it was dry you will find out the next time you charge the system.  if you see bits of not concrete/aggregate in the cuttings that would be a pretty good indicator as well.

 

i cant speak for repairing something embedded within the slab itself, but i have repaired copper water line breaks underneath the slab, which involves breaking up a large enough pothole to gain access to enough pipe to replace the damaged section, replacing said pipe, then backfilling with an appropriate material and concreting up the hole.

 

regular water lines can be leak tested by capping the system with a pressure gauge and pumping it up to a set pressure and leaving it there for a predetermined time(might have to start the clock after the pipes have expanded and come to equilibrium), then check the gauge and see if it has dropped, indicating that water is escaping somewhere.  talk to the contractor and make sure there is a provision in your contract for testing of the finished system if it is not included.

 

if you plan your space out in advance you should be able to completely avoid the areas with plumbing during future equipment additions.  keep a very detailed set of as-builts of the locations and dont be afraid to leave yourself permanent markers as to where the pipes are.  could be something as simple as a chipped mark in the concrete at the perimeter walls or a nail in the baseboard.  something you can match up to the other side of the workspace and snap a chalkline between to give yourself a clear view of the 'no drill' zones to prevent disorientation.

 

as you say you are concerned about the perimeter of the workspace being the most likely candidate for bolted down equipment, find out just how large a footprint the hardware on your wishlist will have and leave yourself a buffer from the edge of the concrete that will be large enough to fit said hardware in, and do not place the pex within that buffer.  depending on your budget and just how foolproof you want to make it you could go so far as to place colored concrete, some kind of surface finish (color, or texture), or even just spraypaint some other visual markers to denote plumbed areas.  reducing the square footage of floor that is plumbed should also knock down the cost of the system, less materials required, less man hours needed to install, etc.

Thanks for the good info Chinobi. I was really hoping to not have to get into planning out the interior with exact detail of where things go. Not because I'm lazy, but because I have so many other projects, and even parts of this build planned to the exact nuance that I was hoping to not have to get that specific but I guess if I want the pex in the floors I just may have to do that. 

Has anyone ever installed shielding over the pex? I.E angle iron on it's 45dg. Or would this inhibit the heating too much?

Lets say worse case scenario you drill and hit the pex. How is this fixed. Will you even know you've hit it? Can you tell if there is a leak in the system after you pour? How much of a nightmare is it to fix it?

The pex is usually tied to the underside of the rebar mats.  If you make sure the pex runs right underneath the rebar, there is less chance of striking it when you drill for your anchors.  Ideally you would know where your equipment will be placed and tie the anchor bolts for the equipment right into the rebar cages before you pour your concrete.  But, as Mainely Bob suggests, larger equipment should be on dedicated foundations that don't require heating.

 

When insulating, the insulation should not only run under the slab, but you want to isolate the slab from the grade beam/foundation wall so the wall doesn't become a heat sink.  I have seen designs where there is a skirt of insulation extending 4' outside of the grade beam as well.

 

Depending on your slab area and application, you might want to break up the heating into zones.  

Can you provide some images of the way your describing the insulation. I get the insulation under the slab and a strip around the inside foundation wall. Are you saying to wrap insulation also around the outside of the footer wall? 

Can you help make more clear "I have seen designs where there is a skirt of insulation extending 4' outside of the grade beam as well." this part for me.

Thanks,
Av

Thanks for all the great information here. I'll definitely be printing this out and keeping it as I weigh the decision to pex or not. I'm North of Redmond, in a small warm pocket of Central oregon. Now that doesn't mean we can't dip down commonly into single digit temps at night in the winter, and even infrequently go below 0dgs.

@Gmoore Sandy is west of the cascades, basically down in the Valley. You'll like it there. And no it doesn't get anywhere near as cold over there as it does where I am. I'm not even sure if you can get snow in the winter there, I think it's to low. It probably depends on your elevation. It's a totally different climate. We are in high desert so hot days/cold nights. Heat rarely stays in the earth. This area is like a giant block of aluminum, it can get hot and it can get cold and it is rarely in between that. lol

If you keep the rebar rather straight and attach the pex to the rebar it shouldn't be to difficult to figure out where to and where not to drill. The problem though, from what I've seen is the edges of the slab, where people commonly bolt down grinders, buffers, sanders, etc. That's where the pexi makes half circles as it reverses direction for the next straight away. It's that area I'm concerned about.

From everything I've read it does seem like it's more geared to living spaces or garages where vehicles are being maintained. Our local fire station apparently has a heated slab.

This area 30x60' probably won't even have a window and will have a limited amount of doors as I'm preparing for a high STC value (sound suppression) I definitely will as a minimum insulate the slab heavily.

Looks like I sort of answered my own question on the insulated slab

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/AE_slab-on-grade_foundation_insulation.html

However i'm still curious if anyone has heard of a way of a heated slab (with circulating water through pex) that is done in such a way that you can still drill and mount to the slab?

Does anyone here have any good ideas that I can pass onto my builder in regards to insulating/warming as we prepare to pour the monolithic slab for my new shop.

I know concrete floors can be a major heat sink in a large shop and wick out the heat. My father was encouraging me to a contoured bed of pex set on chairs to run heated water through the concrete in order to warm the slab. I thought it was a great idea and would save a ton of money on heating the shop in the winter. That is until I realized that most of my machinery in my shop needs to be bolted with anchors into the concrete floor. Way to much risk hitting those water lines and if they are severed a huge ordeal to repair them.

What other ideas can I do?

I saw on a TV show they once put down rigid poly foam and then poured the slab over it. Do people do such a thing for outbuildings? And if so does this work to keep the shop from soaking up the cold from the ground?

Nice boards on the inside. That must be a spendy setup. The brick laid floor is also extremely nice. I'm too economical, I always just go concrete. Easier to repair. That shop is artwork.

I borrowed this idea from a friend,image.jpg
Has a removable handle and I routered out the top to fit the base of the anvil.
Another view,image.jpg
I used 6X8 timber with a 1X shim to fit this 150# Fisher.

For the weight of that anvil it's a good idea, but if you get much heavier you might not be able to correct it if it starts to go over on you. X_X  You definitely wouldn't want the anvil and the stand falling over on you. I've moved anvils with a handtruck and tore a tendon in my thumb. The way you have those bars is the best way to do it. Handtruck bars are perpendicular which put stress on the wrists. Parallel to the load handling bars (like yours is built) allows you to use the pull of your arms. Much safer that way.