Avadon

Thats it. Remember you already have most of those type of walls built, You just need to widen the top and bottom plates with a 2x2 or 2x3 and put another set of studs in between the existing ones. Should be pretty easy if your walls are exposed now.
Rob

Do you have to fire those studs into the concrete with that concrete gun thing? And ontop I imagine you use long screws or lag bolts to hold that beam in parallel?

Yah I googled some diagrams



It's kind of like that. I don't know if I feel comfortable adding all that framing. I think I'll be more comfortable when I get in there and check it out.

My link

Thank you Rob for the help. I'm sure i'll probably have anther question or two in the weeks to come. :D

Oh is this the ridge vent you were talking about?



I'll look.. but I kinda doubt it has this. What does this do? Allow hot air to come out? Does it let your heat out in the winter?

Also I presume I need to insulate the cieling rafters right? Because otherwise all my heat in the winter will be lost into the rafters and all my cooling in the summer will be thwarted by a hot roof.

You need the insulation more for temp if your heating and cooling the space and it will double for sound. The most important thing about heat is not letting it in in the first place and most heat comes down from the ceiling. I would put a ridge vent along the top of the entire house if it dosnt have already. There is a bubble wrap foil that is to go on the underside of your roof sheeting to direct the heat out the ridge vent before it heats up the attic A+. The R value is determined by the wall thickness R13 2x4 wall R19 2x6 wall are most common here . If you only have 2x4 walls I would consider making them thicker for more insulation. If you are really worried about noise you build another set of studs in between the existing ones just a few inches from the outside wall and weave the insulation through the double stud wall. That is to keep the wall itself from transmitting the noise through it, likley to be overkill except if a common wall to the house. Similar to triple pane noise windows. AC should not be a worry, Just insulate well. All vapor barrier should be there on the outside wall already, do not add more. We get to 120F here in the summer and I have done these things in my house and it makes a big difference, I have no AC.
Rob
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Excellent.. thanks for this information. I've copied this paragraph to my building notes. What exactly is a ridge vent? The garage/shop does hvae little 2" holes around the cieling level. I guess i'll be plugging these? or building a way to open and close them?

I'm not exatly sure about how I do the double studs and weave the insulation through. Is there a picture of that or a more obvious way to describe it. Does this mean the other set of studs stick out forward from the original studs?

I would advise against drywall.Remember you are going to be dancing with metal in the shop.Something that dents or chips slightly beats something that ends up with holes at the drop of a hat.
They make fireproof plywood or you can treat your own ply or OSB rather easily.If you`re going to be doing a lot of cutting or other processes involving lots of sparks you may want to consider making the lower half of the walls sheet metal and the upper half ply or OSB to hang things off of.
Cleats around the top of the walls make it easy to hang tool boards that you can move individually to anywhere that is handy within the shop.
As far as outlets go.This isn`t the house don`t put the outlets down low.Make them all a little above benchtop high and put your bench on wheels so you can push it out of the way or to where you need it and still have the outlets where they can service it.Easier to plug things in that way too.
Speaking of wheels put as much as you can on wheels and rig the rest for use with a pallet jack and don`t make anything too wide to fit out the door if you can help it.Better yet put in a sliding or overhead door.
That way you can work outside on those beautiful days.It also comes in handy to be able to wheel everything you`r not using at the moment outside and have plenty of walk around room for those bigger projects.
If you can,rig a beam from the big door across the length of the shop and hang a chainfall and trolley off it to move stuff. either make or plan to make a gin crane off the corner of the building(corners are strong and stable in 2 directions) that will pick high enough to unload things from a flatbed delivery truck like your steel supplier uses and long enough to reach from the corner to that chainfall and beam so you can yarn it inside.
Check wih your insurance carrier.If the shop is attached to the house then according to code and/or the insurance provider you may have to have a firebreak rated to a certain spec in the shared wall and the overhead at least to meet requirements and keep your insurance.
Hope some of this has been a help.Shout if you want more.

I think your right about the drywall after thinking about it. It would work, but over time it would get a lot of dents and dings and the spark spray tends to singe it. I do a lot of cutting of stock with the angle grinder. Some day i'll get my 500$ metal cutting chop saw I saw. Until then I am master of the angle grinder. I've even used up de-walt angle grinders.. if that gives you any idea about how much I use my grinder. It's a tool I use at least once nearly every hour in the shop. Those grinder sounds are what I don't want my neighbors to hear much of. If they do hear something it will be during the day and muted.

Can you show me what the cleats look like for hanging toolboards. I am not familiar with that product. I've got almost all my heavy equipment on wheels. Sanders, Anvils, forges, etc. Your right that wheels make a world of difference. Having things in a permanent spot can be really restrictive as jobs change all the time. Unfortunately the threshold of my garage terminates to gravel. At some point i'd like to pour a large concrete pad so I can wheel the anvil and forge out for "those beautiful days."

I do want to be able to hang my chain hoist in the middle of the shop so I can pick up anvils and heavy stuff. I don't really know how I would hook up a gantry system or something where that chain host would be able to go from front to back or even better from side to side. I want to take out that middle partition. But i'm not sure if it's load bearing. It certainly takes up a huge amount of space. Worst case scenario I have to put a pole in the middle. But i'd like the space to be totally open. I don't deal with a lot of heavy things but occasionally I do need to lift up to 1000lbs to set it on something. Usually something mobile.

You might be right about the firebreak/insurance issue. I don't know what a firebreak is though. Does that mean some special insulation?

As you can see in the 33.jpg (last picture) that is a picture looking from the kitchen down into the garage. So there is a mud room in between and laundry room.

Thanks for the help.. If you think of anything that will help, keep them ideas coming. :)

You said something earlier about heat and air conditioning. Is that for the house or garage? Drywall offers a little fire protection and also helps keep the noise in. The main reason I would go with the drywall (5/8" or 3/4") is fire protection by covering all the little spaces sparks can get caught in and smolder, sound insulation and cleanliness. The thicker drywall is a lot stronger than 1/2". Insulating behind it also to help with noise at least if you are not worried about temperature. You dont have to cover the screws or nails so you can still see the studs if that makes it easy to hang things. Do the electrical all before insulation and drywall. For more fire protection and really easy clean up glue thin sheet metal to the drywall with spray glue.
Rob

Yes, heat (220V Heater from Northern Tool) to keep the garage/shop reasonable temp during the winter. The attached house has an electric forced air furnace, propane fireplace and another small pellet stove in the kitchen. During the summer though I t can get nuclear hot out in the desert (high 80's and 90's) and I want to have a in-window-unit Air conditioner. Does that pull a lot of electricity/amperage? Is that something to worry about?

OOooo This sounds like were going places now. So I would first line the walls with that black paper/plastic barrier stuff right.. then run good insulation (what thickness? RJ?) then put in my sound proofing (is this board or foam?) and then do the heavy drywall and then in some areas of heavy spark-spray put up the thin metal. Sounds like a fair bit of work, but it sounds really worth it. My neighbors aren't close. I'm on about an acre. But I never want them to think they are living next to a blacksmith. Never want to give them a reason to complain so insulation is definitely on my list. Thanks Rob.

As a master Electrician in IBEW 305, and former contractor, I have to comment on the twin breakers I see on the photo. while the separate channels can deal with full the rated load on their own, if all of these are being used the total output will be limited, IE a bank or twin 20 amp breakers wil not do well if they are all running at 20 amp loads.

We only use those twins when the panel is full and waiting to be upgraded soon, or when rarely used items need individual protection. I would change them out to single breakers, lose the tiwns.

Don't worry about the romex, some areas require conduit many do not, as long as its protected from the abuse and sunlight you are fine.

I never realized this. I always thought those twin breakers were just to save space. I'll try to keep this in mind. One idea for one of those dual 20amp breakers was to put half outlets on 1 20 amp side, and another half outlets on the other 20 amp breaker. Now that might be overkill.. but if I had like tv, some lights, and some tools running on one side and I started doing something on the other side (or a friend did) it wouldn't trip a 20amp. Maybe that is overkill. I don't know. I know it's rather hard to trip a 20amp breaker with common shop tools. What do you think? overkill? or smart planning?

Sorry to harass... but I have one more question.. the shop is not insulated.. do I need to insulate+drywall the walls before I start doing the electrical? Or can I just run down the walls and make my outlets?

I do want to insulate and sound proof at some point and i'm hoping I can just put that behind the electrical?

I am on the fence about whether I want to dry wall or not. Is this reccomended? Do I have a fire hazard not covering the insulation? I like the open studs simply because it's easy to see them, bolt to them, hang something off them, drive a nail, etc.

Ideas here would be great.. Thanks in advance for all the help.

I make my living doing electrical work but bear in mind that opinions vary form one electrician to another and code varies from location to location... With that said I would be surprised if you need to upgrade the 125 for your intended use. If you do start tripping the 125 eliminate the possibility of a weak breaker BEFORE you consider upgrading.

As for your wire runs they may or may not be compliant, depending on your local. Way back when copper was cheap we squared our corners and ran things neatly. These days we mostly run as little wire as possible, running straight from point A to point B which can leave quite a tangle. Doing neat work has given way to keeping the cost down. You are correct in that it is an eyesore as well as sometimes an inconvenience, but in today's cutthroat construction economy...

You shouldn't have a problem bundling wires if they are all carrying line voltage. It can create problems if you include low voltage, phone, or data cables in your bundle. You can build an electrical chase with 3 boards placed like this |_| and re-run your wiring inside for a neat, well protected attic space.

Hope that helps.

Excellent. Thanks for the help. I just got a call from a local electrician too and he confirmed what you said. Good to hear two electricians saying the same consistant thing. I think I'll be fine on the 125amp. Doubt I could ever trip that main even if I turned everything on at once and ran it at full capacity. This local electrician said you'd probably never even come close to capacity.

Thanks for the tip on the wire running. I used to do systems engineering and have run a ton of cat 5, so that's probably where the comm/power running concern got wrapped up in my mind. I like the idea of the electrical chase. That will provide a good protected place for them to lay in.

Thanks all for the help. Excellent responses. Not having to change that panel will save me a huge amount of time. Faster I get up and running the faster I can start making money to pay the mortgage.

It is actually a pretty good setup. I have a similar setup at home, a 125 amp subpanel sitting next to the main panel in my smithy (walled off the 3rd stall in the garage). The smithy lights, safety alarms (CO, fire and flamable gas detectors) and fan are run off of the main panel. This was done to allow me to hook up all of my equipment to circuits from the subpanel. As a result I can lock-out all of my equipment by flipping the subpanel breaker and locking the subpanel, while still maintaining power for lights, detectors and safety equipment.

I have never tripped the 125 amp breaker. I would guess you shuold be fine with 125 amps.

Dan Kaschner

Yah between what you and Rob are saying I'll probably never trip that breaker. For the most part it would be lights, compressor, and welder running at the same time, along with a 220v heater in winter/ air conditioner in summer. I guess if I did start tripping that I would just put in a higher guage wire and breaker and upgrade that sub panel.

In Illinois I did have a 30amp breaker in the garage (it was way old electrical) and it would trip all the time. Had to be vary careful about how many lights and tools I ran.

I guess I can always just try and if need be upgrade the sub panel. Doesn't sound like i'd have to re-run all the outlets/lights if I did change it. Because that would be a lot of work.

Where do you get CO detecters? I have a fire detector that is batter operated that detects carbon monoxide, fire/smoke. One time I cracked the acetylene tank and it wasn't very much but it did set off the smoke alarm. Good to know that thing was working. What detectors do you use for safety?

My dad is a electrishon here in Nebraska some of the codes might be different where you are but I will see what he seas later on when he gets home.

Cool. Thank you, I appreciate reporting back whatever you find.

Yah I was quite surprised to see the sub panel. Mostly because the main panel is literally 8-10 feet from the sub panel. In this house there is a main panel in the mud room and then the sub panel is in the garage, next room over. So they probably just fished a wire over the ceiling of the mud room/laundry room and to the garage. Probably wasn't more than 10' of wire.

If for some reason I do trip the main on that 125amp panel. Is it unreasonable to think that I could fairly inexpensively re-run a heavier guage conduit and make that sub panel a 150, 175 or 200amp service?

Oh yah and I should have no problem running single phase 220V 30amp lines off of this (like before) right? I could probably get more pics of the inside of this sub panel down the road.

PS.. no idea what all those breakers are for. I think they just put them in with the idea that there was going to be more electrical because all there is in the garage is the automatic garage door on one door, maybe 6 outlets, and one or two flourescent lights. Almost nothing. I'll probably put in 12-15 outlets, 6-8 eight foot flourescent light fixtures, 3-4 220V 30 amp plugs.

As I'm just one person I wouldn't think I'd ever use more than 100amp by myself. But i'm just not sure what I could have in there in the future. Just out of curiousity can you have a 200 amp sub panel from a 200amp breaker. Basically just a sub-station?

So I'm looking at this house and I believed it to just have a 200 amp service. I thought I'd just have to run my electricity to the shop from the 200 amp service and just share the house with the 200amp. I did this in massachusetts. Never had a problem, never dimmed lights or anything like that. 200amps is heck of a lot of power. I could run the dryer, washer, 30amp industrial compressor, and 30 amp welder all while having tv+lights, etc running and never had even the slightest issue. I think the range/oven was probably even running during one of those times. They probably never draw their full amount except for start up. So I might not have been anywhere near capacity.

Anyway this house has a 200 amp service AND a 125amp sub panel in the garage. Is this a better setup than running off the 200amp service?

I am just wondering if 125amp will be enough. I have a 30 amp compressor, 30amp tig welder, misc power tools, shop lights. I'm guessing I'll be okay? Does anyone here have a 125 service in their shop and can testify to them?

When they ran some of the outlets and lights they just laid the wire ontop of the rafters. This isn't to code is it? I've always run down boards or even put boards in to secure the conduit. I mean it looks like garbage to boot and it kills your ability to throw light storage up there without interfering with electrical. What is the best way to shore those up. Something like a 1" x 5" board screwed to the rafters to act as a highway to neatly secure those lines to. Is there any problem running electrical 15/20amp lines a few inches apart for a long parallel run?

Steve, as far as "What else..." I am done, I have a problem with not knowing when to QUIT.



Fe-Wood, it is all mild steel, 1/8 " and 16 ga. Most of it was tig welded and ground. Here's a phone photo of the shell.


Thanks for the comments, it helps, I will post more when they happen

Thanks K.O.

I have a friend who teaches welded sculpture at the community college, I assisted with teaching the welding aspects and got to use there equipment, So; no that is not my acorn table, unfortunately.

Very cool!! That must have been some good work. Now go sell it to a college for $2,500 and buy yourself a new jet-ski/plasma cutter/bandsaw/toy

That's how I grew my business. :)

After spending some time thinking about this I realized I was kind of going about this the hard way. Simple carport designs and rv carport designs work quite well and getting a kit might actually be a lot cheaper than having to rebuild a lean to out of wood years later and also won't be an eyesore or kill resale. This carport attached has a main area and side protection. One could always sheet that left side you are enclosed on the roof and on one side. Also allows smoke to vent between the two roofs. Neat idea.

Little utility sheds like this area probably extremely cheap in this economy and most probably can be assembled without hiring a contractor.





Some i've seen are as cheap as a $500 and even if that seems high they do offer good design suggestions for a DIY project. Thomas' idea is also really good. Tommorow I make a bid after 4, YES FOUR MONTHS!!, of house hunting. I'm pretty sure I'll get this place. I've had my heart broken numerous times over the last few months but I think this place is going to be the one. I'll show pics. But it's a manufactured house, 3br 2 ba backs to BLM, in a desirable location on 1.25 acres and best of all it's very well within my means and I got a 3% loan. Maybe some day we can have a hammer in at my place! :D

Son I see your a fellow(past tense) new england yankee. I was and still am a griller. Had a space under roof in Conn. OK for standing inside watching the grill. Wouldn't have wanted to stand out there with the wind blowing and 20 inches of snow on the ground. Close it in or move south. Too damm hard to dig ya a hole inna ground if ya freeze out there. This old yankee went to FL for 20 yrs
Now backin the Mtns 1/2 way back.
Ken.

That's right. I used to live on cape cod. Very famaliar with the cape, sandwich, mashpee, hyannis, plymouth, wareham, etc. It was definitely an experience. My gladiator was shipped all the way out there than came back with me to oregon. Doubt many gladiators get to travel that far unless they are going to europe.

New England winters are very harsh. Nothing in the west compares. The guy who came out to do my car windshield replacement in 20dg weather can tell you. It was so cold I couldn't even stand out there and watch him. I just offered him tea and hot choclate but he refused. New England winters are an inside forging experience. Even the blacksmith near me I hardly ever saw outside and definitely never in the winter.

I try to build with what is to hand; my "dirty shop extension" is 20x30', 10' walls; made from free from the local electrical co-op used utility poles with a couple of ancient steel trusses---craigslist. I did splurge on new purlins---metal C ones and all the sheathing is hail damaged steel roofing---got the roof and 1 wall done so far; all in shades of blue.

Picked up 2 9' wide roll up doors (used of course and *blue* to boot!) for the open end, (other end ties into the "clean shop" building.)

Oh yes; I also sprung for a couple of sheets of fiberglass for skylights in the "storage half" of the structure.

I'm a bit more concerned with stuff walking off as I had a 200# anvil stolen out of my back yard in OKC back in 1982 so I plan to enclose my space; but it is sure nice to look at all the green alfalfa in my neighbor's pasture right now...

What about sliding "barn doors" open for good weather and close for bad.

These are all good ideas. Do you have any links or can you upload pictures of this stuff? Seeing makes it so much easier to visualize. Yah I don't think i'd spend the time to do roll up doors. This is just more of a place to work outside with a seperate set of tools where i'd do more coal forging which i'd rather not bring inside.

Some of us go down to Joe Rolfe's place and work occasionally (I really mean play), and we demonstrate blacksmithing at some of his Community Day events. His smithy is a 3-sided open wall addition to an existing building. At times a breeze blowing through the addition can cause problems with lazy coal smoke filling the workspace. Lazy coal smoke as it is to lazy to draw up and out and prefers to just hang around inside with us. A solution to this problem and also a little rain protection are canvas tarps attached at the roof edges. Tarps are rolled up and tied to store neatly at the roof edge until needed. Over time Joe has added a brick floor inside. Pictures should show the attached and stored tarps.

This is very cool. I like the idea of attaching to the side of the existing building. Gives you a good back wall. Then all you need is sides and a roof. Then you have one open face or open door. How well does the brick flooring work? Seems like it would go off level pretty quick. I'd love to make a cool foundation that would avoid having to hire a company to come in and pour a concrete slab, but maybe in the long run that is the cheaper option. Is it difficult or expensive to concrete/mortar bricks in? I'm quite handy, and can build pretty much anything.

Why the lease purchase? Why not just buy it now? Too many things could go wrong between now, and the final sale.

The lease purchase is actually the best for me right now. Can't get the loan right now. Need another 2 years or more to get the best loan I can. Meanwhile my rent and deposit is holding the place and pulling down the price of the property which is agreed upon in the lease. Lease purchase is actually a win win for the buyer provided you negotiate a good purchase price. It gives you the ability to walk with little risk if for some unseen reason things go wrong. If the economy goes up you still only pay what you agreed upon. If the economy goes way down you can cut your losses losing only your small few thousand dollar deposit. The buyer at least gets immediate payments through rent and the deposit they can place towards principle or towards inurance/taxes. So it's not terrible for the buyer either. Certainly much better than letting the property sit for the winter.

If you get your new place how about a porch.

If I get this place it has a large porch. But I don't want to be forging on that decking or around it. Too much chance of fire or just messing up the wood.

I did the opposite, walls with no roof. I still have to weld the back wall up, still figuring out how I want to do the drums for that one.

I don't have to worry about snow, or rain much here. Wind on the other hand....seen a few days with winds 40/50/60mph.

Here are a couple of shots of the 55gal drum smithy. The first is the exterior, and the second shows how the drums can be used for storage. Later I plan on adding some shelves inside the drums to help separate the items better.

That's pretty unique. I bet that breaks up a lot of the wind coming at you. I guess you have no shortage of drums? You should save some so you can make your own coal. Drums like that are also pretty expensive in some areas simply cause they are hard to come by. Have you ever thought about selling them?

We've always called them shed-roof's.


"He shed-roofed a spot on his shop to park his tractor", "I shed-roofed a cover for the BBQ" etc.

Whatever you label them, call it dry and at least outta the weather.
Some sort o' minimal siding would be good for S. OR weather. That rain knows how to work it's way into even the driest buildings.

How's the settling in process going?

I like something like this one

But I don't need the concrete foundation. I have dry dirt.

The settling in hasn't happened yet. It's been a crazy summer. I did get to travel around almost all of oregon and southern washington. I found out I really only could see myself in eugene or in central oregon. So I started looking in both and Eugene is pretty expensive. It's no kept secret and you really have to live way out if you think your going to get 5 acres. So I actually started looking for a few months here in central oregon and monday I might actually get my foot in the door. What I'm hoping to negotiate is a lease purchase on a 5 acre home outside redmond in terrebonne. It's a great home, really new, and very clean. Nice big back yard and nice big shop. If I get it i'll come back here and post a thread in the general forum and show you guys around it. I just don't want to jinx myself yet But wherever I land I am thinking about building this shed-roof/pole shed thing. That way I have all the tools and gas forging inside and the coal forging stuff outside.

That is unless I built a coal forge inside. But they always seemed a little dirty to me. Plus if your outside you can have a nice pit fire going next to you. Forging outside just has a nice feel to its own. In a lot of areas I have duplicate tools so it's not that big of a deal. I can always walk 20 feet back to the shop if I need something. ;)

I called my mom because she knew what it was called. The term I was looking for was a "Portico." They are normally over peoples front doors, but you could make them anywhere. The other term is a wall-less pole shed. I do like the idea of doing half walls. I guess if I did half walls I could avoid some wind chill and also the caustic sun from burning in on one side and scorching me. I'm in central oregon. So does anyone have plans for anything like this or links to peoples little outdoor portico's so I can see what they look like. I'm hoping to have my forge under there and vented up through the roof.