urnesBeast

Charlotte,

I am in Boston. Only the west side is not within 5-8 foot of a stockade fence. Thankfully, the west is where the light is coming from during my hours.

The second "man" door is a possibility. I will just have to purchase it since we have already agreed on a price for the building. I would put that on the side.

Skylights are right out for reliability and leakage. Those solar tubes look more reliable. Any idea on price? They don't come out and tell you on their site, so I suspect $$$$

I am planning the smithy rebuild after my fire. The short of the plan from contractor:
----------------
1. Permit stuff
2. Fire clean up stuff
3. concrete slab

4. Frame 10'x28' wood structure

5. Roof

6. Electrical

7.Insulation

8. Sheetrock and mud+ tape

9. Finish carpentry

10. Clean up

----------------

I get a solid feeling about this contractor. The other bidders proved themselves to be disreputable/unreliable/undesirable very quickly. I like this guy. Answers his phone, returns calls, and has been very specific that communication is important in doing this.

Some of the features I like in the building:

• Thick cement floor- these do not burn so easy... (decided against dirt because I might want this too be for woodworking in the future)
• Drywall eight feet up- this does not burn so easy...
• A ridiculous amount of electrical outlets, all turned off by one master "Frankenstein switch" Pretty mush said "just tell me how many and where"
• I will leave a few always on electrical outlets for the heating pad to keep slack tub from freezing
• We will leave a few areas of the floor thicker and vibration isolated for anvil and future power hammer.
• Double door, big enough for big stuff.
• One wall long enough for full length stock
• Door in right place to get full length stock in from driveway easily
• Enough room to flip over a 10" bar inside
  

Now is the time to think about things that can be done to make the smithy better. The contractor is very open to doing other reasonable things that are not on the list. I am reasonable with him, he is with me.

Are one south facing window, three west facing windows and a double door enough natural light?

Do I want the forge near the double door?

A second door away from the other?

As a administrator-type on a discussion group in the technology area, I can assure you these kinds of problems:

-People posting but not searching for their own answers
-People asking poorly formed questions
-New people not getting calibrated to the culture before posting
-Old people getting tired of seeing the above happen over again

The saying "Don't feed the troll" often applies, meaning "Ignore bad behavior"

The best solution I have seen to these problems is to implement a system that encourages good questions, and rewards desirable behavior:

Stack Overflow

This is a question answering site that is tuned to programming question. It works best for questions that can be answered so I am not sure it works here.

If the Powers That Be are interested, I understand there is a free version of the software that runs their site. I can help locate it.

-Doug

He could not have started it because I was wearing my tin foil hat that night.
And yes, I had forged my tin foil cap with the shiny side out (beware, it DOES NOT WORK the other way!)

That is an excellent point, I am not able to get into to inspect anything right now. Once the insurance guy arrive, we can go look through the wreckage. An ex-cop was telling me that this was an exceptionally hot fire, so the temperature shock you mention is a real danger.

Thanks

I'm not laughing at or with you, I'm bummed it didn't work better but more relieved it didn't burn your place down.

Frosty

Funny you should say that, see my new thread:

http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/what-do-when-your-smithy-burns-down-11145/

To save the suspense, no one was hurt.

Everyone,

I woke up to bright sunshine in my face at 1:30am this morning. I thought, "Gee, I don't feel refreshed." I look out to see my smithy on fire. I called 911, and had the fire trucks here a minute or two later.

Complete loss of the structure, only the anvil was left standing. I think it is still warm.

Lessons learned:

I stored my propane tanks outside. The fire department appreciated this.
I knew the exact locations and amounts of fuel in the area.
The smithy was a standalone building, with proper setbacks. Minimal damage to my house and the neighbors on two sides.

Questions:

An insurance adjuster followed the firetrucks in. He wants 10% of the check if he works with me. It sounds like a good deal. I suspect that one false step with the insurance company and things do not go my direction.

Is the anvil still good, or did it lose its heat treatment? Hammers, etc...

Any advice?

Call Roger Lorrance.

I gather he makes firepots, but Google does not know how to find him... Any help?

In the interest of saving someone else the trouble, here is a forge that worked for me for exactly 26 firings of 2 to 8 hours each, averaging about 3.

For whatever reason, I have fallen in love with the idea of using refractory cement to cast my own firepot. I think I like the idea of doing it myself, and I do not have access to the metal working items needed to make my own firepot. I do not like the idea of spending $200 plus for a firepot, and still not having a table to put it in.

After looking around at all the designs, I was against the brake drum forge, it seemed to be not the right shape for a forge. The just plain dirt in a trash can did not strike me as a good idea. Here is what I did, and why it failed.

Went and bought a bag of refractory cement. This stuff is rated for 1800 degrees and 10,000 cycles. They use it for crematoriums, it is not home depot cement that is going to spalt on you, the price of $40 a bag reflects that.

I made a form out of 2x4, 18"x18"x10.5" I got a 3/4 pipe through the bottom of the form and filled it. I used a large wooden nut to use as the mold for the firepot. I did not reinforce it with rebar or anything. It was still cold out, so I let it sit inside for a day or two to cure, then moved it outside into the smithy, leaving an incadesent light right on top of it for a few days to cure.

By the time I was ready a few days later to get the nut out and start a small wood fire to cure it, the nut was stuck in very well. It was a wooden nut, I needed a wood fire. First problem solved. I burned the thing out. Other than the fact that I did not have a chimney yet, this was a fine plan.

I now have a cured cement firepot. I order a chimney made to Uri Hofi's specs. It is the side draft. I install it. It is a thing of beauty.

I build a table to hold up my heavy fire pot. I make a very bad assumption that 2x4s will work. I also decide to leave the form around the firepot, because, "what the hell" right? Guys like Frosty are laughing (with me) because they know what is going to happen on the first marathon session of forging...

I make the table out of patio brick, supported by the 2x4 table. Table is 54"x36"

First firing:

It works, the fire pot is WAY too deep. Like 6 inches radius spherical hole. It takes a lot of coal to go in there and the sweet spot of the fire is too low. The air pipe is too small. It does make fire, it lit the first time, and the chimney draws so well my hammer got sucked into the updraft and I had to get it out of my neighbors yard.

Things go well for a while with short sessions. I decide the pot is too big. I break up a fire brick, get some clay from the craft store, build or the pot to three inches deep. Fire up. This solves the shape problem, but now clinker sticks to the clay. It never stuck to the refractory cement.

Marathon session:

On one of the first five hour sessions, where I really had the fire humping the whole time, I notice smoke coming from under the table. It is going up the chimney, nothing is on fire. I ignore.

This happens again, but more so on an eight hour session. It keeps smoldering. I tear the table off, and see my form is now made of charcoal. I don't burn charcoal, I burn coal. This is of moderate concern to me. I tear off enough of the form to stop this, and hope for the best.

This keeps happening until all the form is off, but pretty much any wood that was within 4 inches of the firepot has charcoaled to the point of not being structurally sound.

I knew this was not sustainable, I was just hoping to get through to my show on the 25th (two weeks), then rebuild.

Final Failure:

With the form no longer there, I notice smoke much sooner and it is not going up the chimney. I tear the table apart again, this time the fire pot has broken into three pieces.

See photos for the broken pot, burned table, and what was left of the form (sitting in my slack tub to extinguish it)

What I will do next time:
If I go with a cast firepot, I am going to build an all brick enclosure. I will make the firepot separate entity in the forge so that it can be replaced easily.

I think the refractory cement is a win. It does not collect clinker, does not spalt. If it is made thick enough, supported correctly, is reinforced with rebar, I think it can make a very long lived and happy firepot.

Key words for people that are searching
forge design
cement
clay
refractory cement
fire pot
firepot
chimney
side draft
DIY
cheap forge
hairdryer
blower

I should give credit to my instructor at Prospect Hill Forge in Boston. This was my model:

Prospect Hill Forge - YoungDragonSmall

I do like the idea of making him more functional. Maybe making him balance an incense cone holder on the tongue or a small candle. I have been setting a breath mint on his tongue in the office.

He would not work for incense in stick form. It is hard to tell from photos, but the tongue has a graceful curve. I bet I could straighten it and put the incense hole in the mouth.

I think I started with this being all about the tongue, but now it is all about the wings. I am thinking of giving him a tongue-ectemy, but it seems wrong to make a major modification to a piece after I have declared it finished.

I was hoping to do a more graceful attachment of the wings, and will try next time. I kind of like the whimsical way it looks like he tied them on himself- thus "Icarus Wyrm"

Thanks for comments. I think my instructor pulled off the tongue much better. What is it about his that makes it work? I think it is relatively shorter, and he has a bottom lip.

This brass wash that Frosty mentions. How is that done? I already used an angle grinder with brass wire wheel, but that only goes so far. It was done cold.

Thanks,
Doug

I call it Icarus Wyrm

I just finished this the other day. 1/2 square stock, a bit of roofing copper, and one strand of copper wire. About four hours work, partly because of poor planning.

When I do another of these, I would draw out nearer the head before doing anything to form the head. I would cut the "easy to burn horns" as late as possible. I would add a bottom lip so the tongue is more obviously a tongue.

Not sure if this will sell or not. Looking for about $180, but that seems high to me.

-Doug

Eric,

This is not the fireplace cement. This is the stuff they use in creamatoriums. Pricey stuff, but rated for 2000 degree at thousands and thousands of cycles. I made the pot too deep, so I have had to fill it in with kitty litter clay, but the refactory cement is going very strong!

Sorry, when I said concrete, I meant refactory cement, rated to 2000 degrees.

Was in a hurry to get out the door.

Actually, I was thinking one big blower that forks to two or three branches, each with its own ball valve. I like three different pipes because I want a longer, or shorter fire at different times.

I just rethought thought your idea, that makes sense also, with finer control. I think the idea would be like a slide whistle...

I also played with the idea that the firepot is actually a removable block of concrete, and that I can pull out different firepots for different jobs. It is good that it is replaceable in the brick housing, but realistically, I do not think I would change it, so I want to have the three valve design.

-Doug

I have a gas forge, but 8x8 is pretty big to fit in there. Plus the thing throws off a lot of heat. Fine in the winter, but it is getting warmer.

Refactory cement is pricey. Wanted to get it right this time. Kitty litter clay does not hold up as a fire pot. Maybe some clays from a pottery studio would

I find myself doing fold forming in steel a fair amount lately. That means I have sheet metal 8x8 that I would like to heat along a line fairly evenly. This seems much like the needs of a knife maker.

I was thinking that my next forge could be oval to support this longer heating area. However, for general forging, I would only need a smaller pot.

This got me to thinking that I could make an oval firepot with two or three air inlets. Each would have its own electric blower, that way I could make the fire as big or as small as needed for the job.

I am likely going to be making the firepot out of refactory cement, so I can cast it in any shape I want. I think it is minimal trouble to add a second pipe and blower.

Thoughts?
Doug

This is what you should do in my opinion.
...

Make a solid cement floor. You will never regret it.

Christopher

Christopher,

My father is a general contractor, when I told him of this idea he was very concerned that the concrete would get broken up pretty well after a while. "You hammer it to break it up when you are done with it, son." I think this would be a fine plan, but it is tough to argue with a dad...

Anyone know how to answer his objection? I am not afraid to overbuild with rebar.

This is looking more costly than I expected, I am thinking of just doing half the area, the hot area. That make sense because I would have to pour around the door anyways. It looks like going and buying quickcrete is the right way to purchase cheaply.

-Doug

Here are the plans:

This is the design I used for the smithy:

Great Sheds - With Plans - Popular Mechanics

Here are the plans:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/do...505shed001.pdf

So, I am no engineer (oh wait, I am) but I did this building "Overbuild" it style. The runners are 2x10, and the flooring is heavier duty, the beams are slightly bigger too. I suspect the weight will not be a big deal.

-Doug

Christopher,

I was thinking of doing this for the fireproofing aspects, it sounds like it will also help with the anvil bounce? I am guessing this provides such a large mass that it is similar to being truly grounded to the earth?

I see there are premade wire meshes, is that acceptable, or is real rebar what is needed? I like the idea of the plastic being put down. I was going to do it incase I ever wanted to take the floor out, but this sounds like it would never come out anyways. What is the purpose of the plastic then?

-Thanks,
Doug

I have recently been playing with the idea of several strategically placed floor jacks. I can crawl under the smithy and install those without much issue. I figure a couple under the anvil will do wonders.

Mark,

I have decided against bringing the pillar up all the way to be the anvil stand. I do like the idea of bringing a up some concrete to the floor level. With 16" on center, pressure treated supports under the floor, I think I am limited to that width for the concrete (I was warned against pouring the concrete around the supports for rotting).

If I hear you right, you are saying I could take foundation blocks to build up a box, fill it with soil and compact it. Saving on concrete cost and making it bigger. I think that I could wrap the supports in plastic or air gap to make the support box bigger.

Thanks!
Doug

What do you all think of sinking a pillar in one of those round cardboard tubes through the floor, down below the frost line. This would be my anvil stand also, maybe with about an inch of wood on top of the pillar? Think rebar would be needed in this?

Doug

Removing the floor is not an option. The floor of the shed is some 25-30 inches above ground level.

The borax fire proofing seems easy enough, I will do that. If I got lucky in the placement of joists and anvil, I might be able to pour a concrete pillar in between them without any joist rotting contact.

Thanks!
Doug

This is the design I used for the smithy:

Great Sheds - With Plans - Popular Mechanics

Here are the plans:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/documents/PMX0505shed001.pdf

I modified the plans such that the

2x6 joists are now 2x10
6x6 timbers are now 4x10 (2 2x10 glued and bolted)
Timbers are supported by ten cinderblocks, each on a pillar of cement sunk below frost line
Porch is uncovered

If I do build a pillar of cement to put the anvil on, I will likely need to pour it around at least one joist. I assume bigger is better. Will I need to sink this below the frost line also? For geographic reference, I am located in Boston.

I am liking the idea of the pillar. Already my hanging lights bounce a bit when really going at it.

If I understand the other suggestions right, I should cover the floor with cement backer board and put down a tile floor. What about just plain patio pavers with a bit of grout? The dirt floor idea?

Thanks,
Doug