billyO

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Unfortunately, it looks like they were dropped on the way to the keyboard....

 but, why subject one's wrist to yet another repetative-use injury by flipping work hundreds of times a day for the sake of saving a small percentage of heat?

Now Mike brings up probably the best argument for either side (why didn't I think of that?). 

Thanks for thinking out of the box, Mike. 

I did a semi-scientific test. . . .  A better test would be average of 5 of each type with a few different smiths each tring. . .

I'm glad you added the "semi", because, as you no doubt realize, you were only able to control 3 out of many variables (1) number of heats, (2) number of blows, and (3) to boogie or not to boogie (which is the question).  There were no adequate controls for: force of impact, speed/rate of blows, accuracy of blows, accuracy of the boogie, consistent placement of piece on horn, temperature of steel, among others I may not be grouping in these generalizations.  So 'semi' may be too generous.  You started to apply the scientific method, for sure, and controlled what you could to the extent you could, but nowhere near scientific quality, so perhaps a better wording would have been "semi, scientific-ish" test.

 

I only bring this up because of numerous comments over the years on this site of how this is an educational site, and I would not want an uninformed individual to read this thread and then think that this is a representative test of how the material behaves. 

 

 

PS - I hope this isn't just one more step in my turning into a crumudgeon.....

keeps it hotter as you are working the material more

I agree, with all of the above, and when drawing larger (1 1/2"+) stock, you can see the color change (get hotter) with each strike moreso than when not doing the "Boogie". 

But I am by no means an expert on this matter.  Or many others now that I think about it...

Hi Dave.  Not sure if I'm missing something here, but as a physiotherapist by profession for the past 17 years, it seems to me that we're overthinking the problem.  You say he can tie knots, whittle, and grip 1" stock?  I'd like to know how strong he can grip it, but if he's been independent with this hand for years, my guess is it's good and strong.  If the above is true, then all we should have to do is adjust the reins (angle, diameter, shape, etc) on any set of tongs where he needs to grip it to allow him to grip 1" or wherever he is strongest.  The only limitation I can see is the size of stock he'll be able to effectively handle under a power hammer, as heavier stock needs heavier tongs and he'll be limited by the diameter of the tongs at his grip.

I've used spring fullers on the anvil and gone slowly and carefully and had good results turning pipes into candles.  I do it just like squaring a round in 4 blows rotating either 90 or 180-90-180 depending on how it moves on the first blow, then round the square.   

Agreed, and I would add that it's important to pay attention to the length of journey.  As Malcom Gladwell points out in his book, Outliers, to become a Master of one's chosen craft, it takes 10,000 hours of practice.  After 3 yrs of smithing @ an average of 10 hrs/wk I'm only ~ 10-15% there, so I figure in about 29 years I'll be good enough.....

Very nice.  If you're looking for a project, how 'bout one for me??? :rolleyes:

Hello all.  I'm new to larger projects (railings, gates both garden and driveway, etc) and am looking for information regarding minimum size requirements/suggestions for stock. 

 

Are there any resources other than experience that provides this information?  ie:  would 1/2" x 2" be too small, overkill, 'bout right etc for the outer frame of a gate?  Is 1/4" square too small for inner frame elements?  when scaling up to a 6', 8', 10' span how should one scale up the stock size?

 

thanks in advance

As a physical therapist (that'a physiotherapist for those of you across either 'pond') by profession for the past 17 years with 12 of those in orthopedics, my first thought would be, OK but what's the problem.

 

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. 

what's the meaning of "how do you keep the oil suspended"

 

I believe what Steve is referring to is the fact that oil and water doesn't mix, chemically/physically, unlike,say, salt and water.  The salt dissolves in water, oil will not.  The best you can do is stir the oil and water rapidly enough to break the puddle of oil into many tiny drops that are "suspended" in the water, not truly dissolved.  As time passes, the oil, being less dense will form into a puddle again on the top and separate, whereas the only way to remove salt, once dissolved (a solution) is to evaporate the water.  

So...if you're quenching liquid is a mix of oil and water, the question remains, "how do you make sure you have a uniform solution for a uniform quench?"

 

the quench rate of oil is good, beacause in some products of AISI 4337 , we have quenching cracks.

I believe that what Steve is referring to here is the actual rate of cooling for the liquid (degrees of temperature change over time) you are using so that you can compare to cooling rate curve of your specific alloy to determine the percent martensite, bainite, etc.  Here's a great reference that should explain this more thouroughly(sp?). 

http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/Houghton_On_Quenching.pdf

So, here's what I learned:

2.) Make sure you use the heat you have.  Don't try and bend a little bit further cold.  Even heat (or non-heat) is best.

 

P.S. - If anyone wants to share the best way to heat and make large scrolls, I'm all ears!!!

Do you think you could use the fire for the small part of the scroll, then do the rest cold?  You hit the proverbial nail when you said, "Even heat (or non-heat) is best."  With 'Even' being the key word.  Heat just makes it easier.    

Hello all.  Last fall, I was given an older gas powered generator/welder and was told, "The last time I used it, a few years ago, it worked fine."  We did a basic cleaning of the fuel system (ie, purged old fuel, cleaned out the bulb, screen, tank, new fuel line) added some SeaFoam to new fuel and the engine started and ran for about 60-90 seconds.  The following week, I changed the oil and have yet to be able to start the engine.  Actually, if I use starting fluid, the engine will run for a couple of seconds only.

 

I know more about diesel engines than infernal combustion, so I could use some help.  I'm thinking a carb rebuild is next, do you think this'll solve the problem?  If it's anything more involved than that, I need to take it somewhere.

 

thanks

 

PS - It's a Marquette welder with an Onan engine.  We're guessing it's circa mid- 1950's

Let me know what more info you need.

 

Localize the forging heat only at the portion of the eye that you need to move?

From a fellow Pisces, and avid fisherman, I love your design for the fish.  Your friend is lucky.

Hello all. 

Does anyone have any info on either a Famco 40 or Alva Fallen BT5 punch press?  Are they good machines?

 

thanks

billyO

Hello all. 

 

If you go to the NWBA website, in the April, 1986 Hot Iron News, there are 6 different puxxles pictured.

 

Have a safe and happy New year!

Is it possible to make a full sized jig, starting with something like thick aluminum wire (large enough to minimize further steps but small enough to handle the trip back to the shop as well as easy to handle) on-site to make the curve, then bring that to the shop and use as is or beef it up?

This most certainly isn't the answer, only an answer.  I think it probably depends on the size of the axe, but I have one that I was told awas from the 19th century with a 14" blade and it looks like it was made by forging the blade and both sides of the eye flat then eye was formed by wrapping it and riveting making an eye that's approx 5-6" deep (pretty tough to punch/druft through this thickness)  The edge looks like it's done the way many axes were, by welding a carbon steel edge piece.

I know that a book of plates was prepared (I saw the original copy of approx 80 plates and it was beautiful, there's a plate showing how he took a piece of rectangular stock (I think 1/2 x 1 x 4) and forged it into a coffee creamer) and ready to go to printing, but there apparently was a disagreement between the family and the publisher so it's now in limbo, probably never to be published.

Funny you mention it because for the past couple of months I've been thinking about trying to contact the Bartolucci family (I have cousins from not too far away from where he is from) to see if there's any possibility to get this project going again.
I'd love to know if anyone else has any more info


Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the NWBA's Hot Iron News Spring 2002 has the plates for the gladiola you've got there and a hummingbird that he deomonstrated at the ABANA and NWBA conferences when he was here. Go to the HIN archives section of the NWBA website.

I always thought the best hammer was the one that someone else was swinging... ;)

Why ice and not heat? I had always thought that in reality they are interchangable because they both increase blood flow to the area being heated or cooled. The body is either trying to cool off the area or heat it up by dialating the blood vessels in the area and increasing the blood flow. Is there more going on than just increased blood flow?

Good question, George, and not a quick answer (it rarely is with me, I guess), however since you asked, I'll give you my standard heat/ice speech...(can I bill for this?)

Yes, there is more going on than just blood flow, but you're correct in your thinking that vasodilation is the key.

Just so we're all on the same page, let me give a little background. With any mild/moderate musculoskeletal soft tissue injury, there's an acute and chronic phase of injury/healing. **My disclaimer: (Severe injuries should be evaluated by a surgeon, even though they have the similar physiological responses, that's why I'm not including them here.)** The acute phase is immediately following the injury to 2-3 days after the insult has been corrected, and the chronic phase is post-acute to healing. (to all the MDs, athletic trainers, and others in the audience who know more details than I do, please forgive my generalizations...) During this acute phase, there is still active swelling occurring and the goal is to prevent this excessive swelling (the chemical components of swelling initiate the tissue repair process, but excessive swelling impedes healing and rehabilitation). We prevent excessive swelling by what I call RICEM. Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate and Medicate with NSAIDS as appropriate. What I mean by appropriate is you can ALWAYS put an ICE the injury, you can ALWAYS REST the injury, but compression may not be appropriate (ie, I wouldn't compress a neck strain), elevation may be difficult (ever elevate a hip strain???) and meds may not be wanted or contraindicated.
As mentioned, heat always causes vasodilation, so this is contraindicated during active swelling because although heat feels good to most people, it will mainly contribute to more swelling and slowing down your recovery.
There's also some debate as to the timing and/or depth of the vasodilation with icing (if I'm still current on my reading of the research) so the medical field still prefers ice during the acute phase of an injury (again, unless specifically contraindicated).

So why ever use heat? The other thing that happens during both the acute and chronic pases of most soft tissue injuries is that all the surrounding soft tissue tends to spasm and contract in what the medical field calls 'muscle guarding' or 'muscle splinting' and this is the body's natural protective response to help prevent further injury. If you're not moving the injury, you're not increasing the damage, inflammation (Rest?) and pain. Heat will almost always relax soft tissues (a warm rubber hose is much more flexible than a cold one) which helps to make moving and rehab easier (a good thing from a PT standpoint most of the time), but remember heat always causes vasodilation, so this is contraindicated during any active swelling/inflammation.

In my experience, the patients who do the best with sprain/strain type injuries are the ones who are able to pay attention to their discomforts and pains and learn to distinguish which ones are from tightness/guarding (heat and gently use these) and which ones are from inflammation/swelling (usually more of a soreness or burning, but mild inflammation is also often described as an ache) and to Ice these.

So this begs the question "does this mean that I only need to ice the first few days after my injury?"
My thought is that, in general, if you have any soft tissue pain when at rest, your body is telling you that you have inflammed tissues and these need to be iced and rested. Also, there is good research that ice can reduce spasms, and ice also tends to numb sensory nerves temporarily so this can help provide some temporary pain relief, further tipping the scales in favor of trying ice first. Don't forget to consider it the depth of the injury/inflammation. Tissue temperature changes from heat and ice only penetrate an inch or so, so this needs to be considered when deciding to use heat or ice. In general, what I tell all patients is to try ice first, if that doesn't provide any relief after a couple of days, then try heat if you want. Ice will never slow down healing, heat might. Howerever, if you use heat, you need to pay attention to how the area feels 30-60 minutes after you remove the heat. If it feels good, then continue to use heat if you want. However, if there's no relief or increased sorenss/ache 30-60 min after taking the heat off, then you're incresing the inflammation and you should NOT use heat.

Above all, don't forget the basics: If you're getting better, keep doing what you're doing. If your not getting better or if you're getting worse, you gotta do something different. And above all, forget the "No pain, No gain!" mentality but remember "Use it or lose it!"'

I'll try to clarify if necessary...

Hello all.
I wish I had a swage with dish/spoon depressions, and all my holes are too big for what i do, but I bought mine because of all the edge groves, one side hex, one round, one a 90deg vee and one a 60 deg vee. I use it mainly to hold stock for chiseling round stock, chiseling on edge of square, turning square to triangle, round to hex, etc.

Hello all. If you check out the NWBA newsletter, Hot Iron News (HIN) Spring 2002 issue (It's available as on the NWBA website), there's a storyboard of a demonstration done by a smith from Italy, Angelo Barrtolucci, on making a hummingbird out of one piece. It shouldn't be too tough to adapt it to a rooster.

btw- I also saw a collection of his storyboards that were going to be published at one time and one shows how to make a creamer (as in coffee and cream) out of a single piece of rectangular stock...amazing

Hello all, I had to respond....

Any good physical therapist will all give the same advice no matter what the injury. . .

Not necessarily, each injury should be treated individually (speaking as a PT for the past 17 years). But all PTs will give the same advice about this type of sprain/strain injury. Rest the overworked muscles, ICE the inflammed tissues, stretch the tight tissues and gradually build into any activity involving strength, especially when impact is involved.
just my 2 cents....