Mikey98118

So, ye wist not to use it any other way?

4 minutes ago, Frosty said:

but I wist towards practical possibilities even if they tend towards logical extremes. 

Oh, good one, Frosty! And written "in tune with the music," so to speak

17 minutes ago, Frosty said:

You  keep using words like, exact, precise and <GASP> perfectly!

And if not tongue in cheek, I use them wistfully; for these good things are just not in the cards. "To ere is human" and even worse, historic. The more new products that come on the market the more errors in judgement must be corrected 

On the plus side, at least the new gas forges get hot enough. So, before we shake a finger, it is good to remember all the 'red hot' forges that we used to see

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Another kiln shelf on spacers for the floor and it should be much glowier.

What I like best about your idea is choice; he can use it to save fuel most of the time, and still have space for tall objects, likr helmets, bowls, or crucibles when needed.

Getting back to his point; it is a very good point. This little mess has been bugging me for a couple of years. And my answer to his problem was sloppy, because I only have a hazy idea of a workable exact solution. The best I can say is what will lesson it. Not precisely why some burners in some forges experience it.

What I can say precisely is unhelpful, but here it is. "Your burner is a little weak." It's not a lot weak, or your forge would not be getting to yellow incandescence with it.

How's that for cold comfort? Unhelpful all over the place, right? So, we muddle along, with advice that can at least help; here is more. The mixing tube on your burner is too long, which weakens its flame somewhat. So shorten it down to nine times its diameter.

And now you are being asked to modify your forge's burner by someone you never met; what's the chance that such advice is inviting? And furthermore, you will still need to increase the insulation in your forge's ceiling, so my advice is still less welcome; in your place, I would feel quite reluctant to take it.

Finally, I cannot guaranty you that my advice will work out perfectly for you. I can only state that "in my vast experience..." blah, blah, blah.

What a pickle! What to do? Well, you could just act on the first advice, and see how it works out...

And finally, I could point out that your burner is top pointed and pointing straight down, which invites this problem. Manufacturers should mount their burners up high on a side wall of box forges, in order to avoid it. How's that for adding insult to injury?

Now, aren't you sorry you brought up that objection? But, I'm not. It is long past time this mess got addressed.

Anyone else want to "step up to bat, and take a swing"?

3 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

top pointed and pointing straight down

Ugh! how about "...top mounted, and pointing down"; that should make better since

I think they stopped selling the burners, first.

And you're right; they were the best part of the deal.

That is sad. at least there are a few other good commercial forge designs still available on the low end of the market, even if the very best deal isn't around anymore. A couple of the all stainless steel oval forges are still worth picking up, although you would be well advised to replace their burners...

No dispute here, but I am merely agreeing that a small air gap (less than 1" thick) will have some insulation value. And since it would also help to reduce the internal volume on what I consider to be a an overly tall internal volume, it would probably serve a double benefit.

On the other hand, I like that recuperative forge scheme, being an impractical total over-doer at heart, my own self

Yup! And since getting the two surfaces to mate perfectly would probably be a pain, ain't that nice?

So, if he chooses ceramic board, or Morgan K 26 bricks, he could just drill small holes in the top plate of his forge shell, and drop screws through them, and screw them into a suspended ceiling, to hold it in place.

I think you answered your own question, when you stated "...but the insulation was a bit lacking inside the forge." I noticed that it is the top of the forge, rather than the burner that is turning red. Therefore, it is unlikely that heat is backing up much between the burner and the opening. So, you will need to add another layer of insulation on the ceiling, with another  flame coating over that. You might consider using ceramic board, rather than ceramic wool, for the purpose.

If you set up the forge as a radiant oven, than perhaps nothing will be lost by the "cold spot," where you might continue to set your work. For, it would not remain cold, but would remain unlikely to be impinged by the burner's flames, and therefore unlikely to contribute to scale on work surfaces. Just a thought.

Lee,

Repurposing is just one goal. We all do what we can to simplify burner construction. Meantime, we do what we can, never knowing who in the wide world will come up with a better plan

I suspect that manipulating the patterns of multiple flame orifice ceramic heads and stainless steel flame retention nozzles, will be the next big improvement in burner design. The clever part will be in keeping the construction simple enough to interest novices. So, repurposed parts will remain key?

When it comes to burner design, I think you're on a roll

I never enjoyed TIG welding. One of the things that was so enjoyable about oxyacetylene welding, was that it was just that little bit slower; slow enough for mirror welding. There is nothing like fixing nasty messes on the hidden side of marine pipes, to mollify a worried boss 

Is there anything we can't get addicted too? My last gas weld must be thirty years in the past; I still wanna...

The temptation to "just weld it together" bugged me for several years. So, I gave away all my welding machines to friends; no more temptation...at last

Okay, that's a lie. There is still some temptation left, but I can just lay down and be very still, until it passes

We both resemble that remark

So, how would you know what fastener to use and how to use it? Just Google "fasteners." Then Google each fastener that you are interested in; some provider while list instructions on pop-riveting, etc. in order to encourage you to purchase their product.

                                                               Just don't weld it!

Many people form the opinion that they must be able to weld, to build a forge. I suspect this is because it is common to see commercial forges that have been welded together. So, if welding isn't the best way to attach forge parts to each other, why is it so common? Welding is common in commercial forges for the same reason it is common in small steel shops; if you already have the equipment and the know-how, it is the fastest way to stick stuff together--period. It is not the best way to assemble a forge; it is more often than not the WORST WAY! But, monkey see, monkey do...

Even if you have a welding machine, do you understand what part is safe to weld, and what isn't? There is a lot more knowledge needed for proper welding technique than just how to make a pretty weld bead. If you aren't familiar with how metal moves during welded, and afterward during heating cycles, avoid welding like the plague!

There are machine screws, sheet metal screws, and pop-rivets to stick those parts together with, and all of them allow a certain amount of movement, during heating cycles; welds do not.

To the guy who asked for answers to his questions about his forge, today:

I was busy replying to your questions when I lost your email to me. Please try again.

Frosty,

Is it my imagination, or has the conversion been even slower this month than in January? Is everyone still trying to dig themselves out from under the snow?

You are welcome. Answers is what we are here for. Each one of you who speak out about a problem, is only one of many more around the world, who are also wrestling with similar issues. So, when we write back to one of you, all those others have the chance for an answer too. That you get particular answers to particular questions is your reward for speaking out

2 hours ago, Swamp_Rat said:

I initially had the choke on my burner opened all the way but I was getting bad putting and scaling so I tried it closed up to see if that helped. I was running at 4-5 psi so maybe I just didn’t have enough fuel for the amount of air?

Most smiths prefer a reducing flame, to keep scaling minor; this is fine. However, this is one more example of "if some is good, isn't more better?" To which the answer is NO! A slightly reducing flame provides reasonable assurance that little super heated oxygen will impinge on the heating parts. Increasing the amount of fuel gas past this point adds nothing useful to this situation; it only lowers internal temperatures, and produces carbon monoxide gas into the exhaust. So, play with the flame, until you become familiar enough to see the point where the secondary flame envelope becomes minor, but is still present; that is the best balance of positive to negative factors.

Four to five PSI fuel pressure is way to low for welding with this burner series. You need to understand that these tube burners are designed to produce high-speed flames; this is accomplished with smaller gas orifice diameters and higher gas pressures passing through them. Expect to run around fifteen PSI for welding. Lowering gas pressures is actually a losing proposition, since a successful forge operates as a radiant oven. A yellow-white forge enterior will heat the work far faster than an orange hot surface. So, increasing gas pressure saves more than it costs, so long as you aren't wasting gas with a flaming exhaust.

Instead of adding bricks--even insulating bricks--to the forge, you are better off to add insulation over the floor, with Kast-O-lite 30 on top of it, so as to reshape the inside of the forge, closer to a "D" on its side shape. The reason is that you want the hot internal atmosphere of the forge to circulate without hindrance.

Scrap art is my favorite form of metal sculpture. Nice piece.

Once your burner can work properly, you will come up against another problem, for I see the cross angle, holding your brick doors is place, is already starting to overheat. You need to move  those bricks about one-inch away from the edge of the forge opening, so that the exhaust gases can rise up between the brick doors and the edge of the exhaust opening. It is fine to leave the back doors where they are, because you want to encourage the exhuast to pour out the front opening; once it can without hindrance, it should stop pouring out past the back bricks.

You would be wise to exchange the wood pieces near the back of your forge, for cement board...before they catch fire.