knots

262 pounds is a respectable size, but there is something else that you should consider .     That is rebound.  The heavier the anvil the more force of the hammer blow is absorbed/stored into the anvil which then,  depending on the quality of the anvil,  may be available to provide hammer rebound.  

 

Brooks anvils are good anvils I had a smaller one for years that I used for demonstrating and traveling.  That anvil had good rebound characteristics for an anvil of it's size.

 

I know that hammer technique is a controversial subject in this forum but I beleve that it is safe to say that the use hammer rebound is an important part of hammer technique .  That being the case, it is highly desireable to own and us an anvil which has the best rebound available.   I think that it might be worth while to look at that Brooks from the standpoint of rebound .

 

I have a 300 pound Peter Wright which has respectable rebound but , If I were a bit younger,  I would be looking for an anvil 300-350 pounds with exceptional rebound.  Properly used rebound gives back some of what you put into the anvil reducing the effort of the upswing.  This can equate to reduced stress  and happy forging.

Google "Blacksmiths Guild of the Potomac".  

If you really want an eye full of some really nice midieval iron clad doors and decorative ironwork have a look at "Midieval Ironwork in Sweden", by Lennart Karlsson. Two volumes of over a thousand examples of midieval ironwork. Published in 1988, this is not your normal book store fare, however I see that each of the two volumes are available to be checked out, for a fee and shipping costs, (at least by members of the "Rocky Mountain Smiths" group) throught the following link:

http://www.rockymountainsmiths.org/library/category.php?category=Ironwork

It would be well worth the trouble to do a mail order check out if they are available to the general smithing community.

One of my favorite hammers is an old MOD hammer used for dressing stone with chisles. It had a curve along the hammer head arc axis that I suppose was meant to compensate for the arc of the swing and make the hammer face strike the chisel square. I reforged it straight with straight peen but left it untreated as it came out of the fire, basically normalized. Back when I re-purposed this hammer I was doing some forging at public events and wanted a relatively soft hammer to assure that a shard would not come off of the hammer and injure a spectator. The file test confirmed that it was only modreately hardened, probably a result of the alloy rather than any thing that I did. The hammer has served me well over the years I just dress it occasionally. However if you are polished anvil sort of smith I doubt that it would meet your needs.

Some times a soft hammer is a good thing to have. I suspect that since your hammer was mushroomed that it was originally used for stone work and had never intended as a hard face hammer. If it had been hardened it would most likely had chipped edges rather than mushrommed. I would use it for a while before doing any thing.

My understanding is that forging these hollow drills can be dangerous.  Air can become trapped in the bore and cause the forging to rupture resulting in flying red hot debris.    Paver breakers and smaller pneumatic tools, without the bore, are common and easily obtainable.  I usually buy mine from equipment rental shops so why take a chance.

 

I like the idea of using them for monkey tools .

EFFECTS OF HEAT Difficult to ignite. Does not propagate flame. Does not melt. Decomposes at 900° F

 

From what I read "decompose"  should be considered as vaporize.  Apparently the temperature differential between solid state and gaseous state is small.  They are good insulators but  I don't use them for anything that produces sparks or around work pieces where the held end can exceed moderately low temperatures of around 200Deg F.   In practice much lower . 

A gas forge can produce as much heat or more than a forced air gas furnace . Using that example I would not use an unvented gas forge in an a basement. The question of oxygen consumption is not the only question that needs consideration. Carbon monoxide is a likely product. So not only is there a need for fresh air supply but the gases produced by combustion need to be vented.

There are other issues that need to be addressed. You should consider your residential insurance and how having a propane forge might affect your coverage, especially if you plan to use bottled gas.

There may be ways to resolve all of these barriers such as placing your forge in some sort of vented sheet metal cabinet but I expect that even if there are effective ways to resolve these issues in a practical manner that insurance and code officials may still not agree. I gave up trying long ago. I just pull my forge outside when in service.

Have a look at this.  The Refractory mix is probably not right for a forge but the idea coupled with the right refractry mix could be a winner.   This would be a good research project. 

 

http://www.bioenergylists.org/stovesdoc/Still/VC%20Stove/vcstove.html

 In a pinch you can actually machine soft insulating fire brick on a table saw, dry.   Sawing fire bricks dry is a very dusty propisition so a good dust control system AND resptrator should be used .   A wet saw can be used but then the brick must be thourghly dried.     As I recall I used a worn out carbide wood cutting blade which was disposed of after use .  Although I have not tried to alter standard fire bricks to arch bricks I see no reason that it couln't be done.  

 

Having said this  If the arch bricks are readily available I would purchase them rather than fabricate them.  Another alternative would be to cast and fire your own insulating refractory.  I have recently seen a tutorial on this which I will attempt to relocate.  If you are near a craft school and can fire ceramic units this may be an option,

What are the pro's and con's for the use of welded vs. bolted hydraulic cylinders in a forging press ?

Thank you all for your comments.   A recent move has created a space crisis in my shop.  My age has prompted the decision not to build another bigger shop.  I have been taking a hard look at my stable of equipment.  It looks like my faithfull old Waterbury Farrell screw press is a prime candidate for down sizing because of the large footprint required.  

 

This thread has helped me work through a piece of the solution to my space problem.   What ever I build will be a compact replacement for my big screw press.  Petree's Idea "power it from outside the shop" and Ricks input " a separate power unit"  will to be part of my space problem solution as well as safety issues discussed.   The current idea is that the Press will be located adjacent to an opening to my outside work area.  The pump unit will be wheeled out for use and inside when idle. The press will be built first and temporarily powered by my tractor hydraulics via quick connect couplers.   All hydraulics will be enclosed or jacketed so that even if there is a hydraulic line rupture the hydraulic fluid stream will be  localized and atomization minimized. 

 

Many thanks to all who have participated .  

" If the three posts above seem to be filled with jargon, or too hard to comply with you should strongly consider your choice to home build or start studying. Once I get home tonight I will probably post a few choice references for study ".

I have no problem understanding what you have outlined here. I just question How some of this applies to a press that will be used for intermittent craft service rather than industrial production applications. Your position on the following question is still of interest to me. What is an acceptable compromise of the standard used for industrial forging presses for presses used in craft rather than industrial settings.

My experience with powered hydraulics has been limited to construction equipment. Tractors and accessories. I have experienced ruptured hydraulic lines and can appreciate what might result from injection of gallons of oil into the interior environment a shop in close proximity to a forge or forge furnace. However in an industrial environment where a forge press could be run eight or more hours each day where production is the norm how does the risk of that environment equate to a craft shop where the press might be run an average of an hour or two a day, or even an hour or two a month. If you view risk as a probability over time the less frequent the use the less the risk. I remember my mother telling me not to play with fire. I obviously have not followed that advice. Nothing that we do is risk free. Here the question where does the limit of acceptable risk lie?

The use of water ethylene glycol is new to me. If used as the hydraulic fluid I presume that placing the pump and tanks on the top of the machine would no longer be viewed as a hazard. However other details must come into play. For instance do the pump and tank need to be stainless steel ? What special provisions need to be incorporated into the equipment if used ? Does maintenance frequency increase ?

If the pump needs to be located outside the shop in my case that means it will be placed out doors. If that is the case I might as well use my tractor hydraulics as a source of power. The quick connectors would he outdoors as well.

Keep the ideas coming.

OK team, here is the real, how to be safe with hydraulics and forging.

Reservoir goes on the other side of a fire proof barrier. The lines go INSIDE regular pipe. The pump and hoses NEVER go on top. If on top every little leak is a fire. The real hazard for a small shop press is much as noted by Frosty, a small leak through a orifice small enough to make an atomized mist that becomes a flame thrower when it reaches an ignition source. AND yes even a small power unit moves plenty to be a hazard, not just an aircraft system. Leaks through a small orifice can be injected into human tissue at about 2800PSI. Won't cut you in half, just injects dirty hydraulic fluid that kills the tissue and is a sure infection.

Hydraulic tanks should be a "Pickled and oiled" condition, and unless you do pickle and oil then square tube will fill your oil with pump killing trash. The trash that will kill a pump is way smaller than can be seen by eye. The tank also rejects heat, based on surface area. The tanks usually has a baffle that force the fluid to move all the way around a tank, giving time for cooling thru the walls and floor, allows foam to rise, and dirt to settle. The floor of the tank should not be flat, they have an angle and taper to the drain, so water can be pulled out. They are equipped with a breather, but most breathers are trash and allow dirt in.

Cylinders should also be considered as the most likely leak is from the rod seal, and whether above or below these will weep, but will also blow a spray occasionally.

I have designed presses to 50 tons, and have procured special presses made to my order to 1000tons. I have worked with high pressure hydraulic for over 30 years often working to 30,000 psi. I have also seen the fires, the lost portions of hands from a post oil injection infection, and cleaned up many many forge shop fires.

I do not currently have a press in my shop. I may yet build one, and when I do it will be based on what the forge industry does, and the things I know to NOT do.

 

Holy Toledo !     This means that none of the forging presses, that I know of, being built by the Blacksmithing and knife-making community are not safe.  At least by the above stated standards, which I gather is the acceptable industrial standard.  

 

This thread started out as a inquiry into opinions regarding the use of the press frame as an oil reservoir.  What we have now is a much larger question:   What  is an acceptable compromise of the standard used for industrial forging presses for presses used in craft rather than industrial settings.  Good question.

Sorry I misunderstood your apparently very basic questions to indicate you don't know or understand hydraulics that well. I won't trouble you again.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Frosty,

 

Thank you for your post.  I think there was likely a problem on both ends.  My guess is that we both had a bad day.  

 

Dan

Thanks Peter. One thing that I have going for me is that the service factor will be really low. On the other hand when using columns as the resivours the heated oil can only expand up. So I really need to run the numbers on expansion and see what to expect for the size columns being considered. Probably will design for oil volume/capacity plus 50-60 degrees of temperature expansion, then for my service just push the limits on overfill. A sight glass would be nice as well.

The other thing that I will do , for sure, is place a 1/4" tap and valve at the bottom of the columns, in addition to the drain plug/valve, to allow an easy way to check for free water in the system from time to time. I have installed one on a tractor that has condensation contamination problems. That addition has been a big help.

Good Morning,

 

I agree with KNOTS about putting the pump, reservoir and high pressure hoses on the top. In my mind it is obvious. The only problem is that the press is now top heavy. Paul Thorne brought his Press to CanIRON VI in Victoria, all the plumbing was on the top. He put two horizontal sections of rectangular tubing in the frame (+/- 6") so the forks of the forklift could pick it up at the balance point he designed into it. The forks would not twist in the rectangular tube sections so there was no fear of the frame rolling on the forks. K.I.S.S.

 

I have used sections of round pipe (6"+) for reservoirs. Round because I had it in stock, who cares what shape it is. Vent the top and pick-up from the bottom. If you are concerned about heat build-up in the tank, run the return through a copper automotive radiator with a fan. It works wonderful and simple.

 

Neil

 

Top heavy ?  Yes, but now that you bring that up it would be easy enough to mount the motor an pump assembly on it's own base and plumb and wire the assembly to be easily disconnected, unbolted as a unit, and hoisted off of the machine for moving/shipping.

 

I have good sized screw press that I just recently moved.  Talk about top heavy, it got partially dissassembled .  Where there is will there is a way.  Thanks Good Point.

Thank you Peter.  Bringing`up condensation is a really good point that I had not considered.  OK, if you were to compare this scheme ot the normal application which is a seperate tank at the same location as the machine how would the two differ in terms of temperature differential exposure to the extent that internal condensation would be a problem ?    However, either way,couldn't the condensation problem be minimized by keeping the oil resevour topped up therefore limiting the area on which the condensation could form.

Leak tight welds ? With a tubular frame the concern about leakage would be limited to the end closures and low pressure intake and uptake ports. Weld joint leakage should be a manageable issue. Since the resevouir penetrations are only low pressure connections, pressure rated welds in the resevouir are a mute point. The few welds that might be subject to leaking would be pressure tested with compressed air to identify leaks for repair .

The way I would control hose damage exposure and length is to mount the hydraulic pump high on the frame, perhaps on top. This would reduce both the exposure and the length of hose needed. As indicated in my initial post well developed presses have hose protection. It is my intent to include this feature. You mention square tube as being a poor choice for a pressure vessel. I can't see that as being a problem since the oil resevouir is always at or near atmospheric pressure.



Frosty, Hydraulics I understand. What I do not understand is how you can presume that I am clueless and incompetent without careful consideration. The tone of your post and the fact that you obviously did not take care in reading and understand it is unfortunate and sad.

There has been a fair amount of interest in hydraulic forging presses here on the forum lately.  Having seen a variety of presses it seems like many of the presses featured have their hydraulic oil storage tanks below or immediately behind the forging dies.   Hoses are frequently unprotected and in close proximity to the work area and exposed to possible damage from a miss-move or mishap involving hot work pieces.  

 

Some of the more well developed presses have protective sleeves installed over the hoses or shields intended to keep the hot work and debris away from the tank and hoses and to protect the operator from high pressure hydraulic leaks.  I have been considering how the hydraulic components might be arranged to optimize safety.  One thought is that tubular press frame might become the oil resevouir.  This could reduce the amount of hydraulic hose and in general keep the oil supply close to the hydraulic cylinder, as well as make the machine more compact without increasing the exposure to the hot scale and swarf produced by the forging process.  I would like to hear your thoughts on this concept and in general other arrangements that might provide improvements to press lay out and function of these machines.to the general.

I have been folowing this thread with interest. A lot of experience is concentrated here.

One other thing that might be worth checking out is the alinement of the hammer dies. Even if the hammer runs true in its guides, if the dies are not meeting accurately surface to surface/face to face then things can get out of square. If your dies are manufactured or machined this is unlikely to be a problem. However if your dies are fabricated seemingly minor discrepencies can cause problems. I make up most of my hammer dies and always make sure that they aline accurately and that they are always installed in the hammer in the same orientation. My dies are marked top front and bottom front, and l always installed in the same position. For instance if one die is installed 180 degrees out of registration a slight error can double and possibly cause a problem.

Good to hear of your progress. Success is rewarding on many levels.

How bout this ? However I think these would be more applicable to a press than a power hammer. Got my first power hammer in 1982 and have never seen such dies used in one. For dies you want the most versitile mulipurpose tool because changing dies is such a pain. On the other hand if you had a press in addition to your power hammer ------.

http://www.dfoggknives.com/Dies.htm

Check this out. Post no 19

http://www.metalartistforum.com/maf/index.php?/topic/6223-work-methods-used-by-aging-smiths/#entry112858

ASO's are fair game for whatever you want to do.

I'll probably be chased out of town like a leper spreading disease for saying this but I'd mull over the idea of welding another hardy shank on the top (or on the side, either way you'd end up with North and South facing shanks) for the reason that the underside looks as useful as the top - you've got a nice pre-formed curve in the heel and the underside of the horn could be good for fullering or little scrolls.

Obviously that sacrifices the middle flat area on top of the "anvil"...but you've got your real anvil for that.

I never discount outside the box ramblings of the mind.  Lets just ask ourselves - if we had an extra old anvil with damaged face or edges, and not a candidate for refacing, what could we do with an upright or upside down anvil mounted securely on a stand or stump ?   If it were a forged anvil you would have the beginnings of a hardy hole at the center of the up-turned base.  

 

I am going to have to ponder on this one.   As stated by Krugan lots of different curves, possibly convert some surfaces for swaging. HMMMM