forging a box joint

[maddog]

Does anyone know of a good resource for forging a pair of box joint pliers? Peter Ross makes these but the only video I can find is so poor and erratic as to be useless. I have the general idea but this is a case where the details really matter.

Thank you.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I think these guys got it down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCYSXpS9keI&feature=player_embedded

[maddog]

Wow thats a real find! Thanks Grant. The other videos at that account show various other stages. They use a special swage to forge the other half of the joint. Here is a video of the blanks being cut on a PH.


Pliers Blanks

[fciron]

Dang! Those guys do have it down.

Donald Streeter shows how he makes box-joint pipe tongs in 'Professional Smithing' if you need more info.

[bigfootnampa]

I love box joint pliers! Usually when I see them in antique stores or at flea markets the sellers do not value them as highly as I do. So I get a few here and there when I can. I have always wanted to make some and these guys make it look quite easy... I suspect that that is illusion!

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

No illusion at all. Anything is easy when you've done it a thousand times!

They do have the moves down. Love the beat up hex nut for a bolster!

[Timothy Miller]

I watched the whole series of videos. Those are already punched they are just fitting them together. There are a series of smiths doing each step. You should watch the whole thing. There is one where a guy is actually turning a hand cranked blower as a job, a full time job. How low do wages have to be, to make a human being cost less than a 1/8 hp motor hooked up to a fan. No wonder why people are willing to blow themselves up in the name of God.

[MattBower]

Awesome video. Love the anvil, too. Wait, that can't be an anvil! It doesn't have a horn, or a pritchel, or a hardy hole....

lol

[fciron]

You're also only seeing the final step. The through hole has already been shaped and they're just opening it with the top tool in the first operation. All the hard and finicky stuff has already been done.

I had a similar experience one time when a fellow came into the shop just in time to see me take a flat bar out of the forge, clamp it in a vise and drive a hot cut into it, seemingly splitting it lengthwise about six inches in three blows. Poor guy didn't know that I had split it with the band saw before heating it.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I watched the whole series of videos. Those are already punched they are just fitting them together. There are a series of smiths doing each step. You should watch the whole thing. There is one where a guy is actually turning a hand cranked blower as a job, a full time job. How low do wages have to be, to make a human being cost less than a 1/8 hp motor hooked up to a fan. No wonder why people are willing to blow themselves up in the name of God.

Maybe they don't consider it particularly enlightened to replace a worker with an electric motor. Or maybe he's "in training" by observing. Seen many smiths at conferences more than willing to crank a blower all day for a master. Might be all of the masters sons employed in the shop. Some societies aren't so fast to put people out of work as us, even when it makes "economic sense".

Yes they are "just fitting them together", but the parts don't fall from the sky. I'm sure they manage the other steps just as fluidly.

[monstermetal]

I like this one..

Now that guy is a "powerhammer"

blacksmiith vid

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

In other countries, someone with a family business is often supporting a large extended family. Better to get some work out of them and make them feel like they're earning it. I'd bet he has other duties too.

The "profile" of bombers is often just the opposite of what we imagine. Mostly college educated for one. Look at Bin Ladin, educated, wealthy and from an influential Saudi family. Go figure.

[fciron]

In other countries, someone with a family business is often supporting a large extended family. Better to get some work out of them and make them feel like they're earning it. I'd bet he has other duties too.

The "profile" of bombers is often just the opposite of what we imagine. Mostly college educated for one. Look at Bin Ladin, educated, wealthy and from an influential Saudi family. Go figure.

Same thing for some of the kids my father hung out with in the sixties. There's complicated sets of motivations, but it does seem that the people crying out loudest for radical action are the ones less concerned with getting food on the table.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

As recent as 75 years ago we had crews of men building roads with hand tools. We had the machines to do it "efficiently", but employment was the goal, not efficiency. Anyone could have looked at that and said "Why we could replace 100 of these men with one Bulldozer"!

I've been to countries that generated no garbage. Every morning men came by with push-carts. One took all the metal scraps, another the cardboard and paper and another the food waste. Everything was recycled! When there is no welfare system, doing anything is better than doing nothing.

That blacksmith obviously has electricity (I assume the air hammer uses it) and he's probably not stupid, so he has simply made a choice to employ someone. I've kept people employed at time where it would have made more "sense" to lay them off, but dollars aren't everything. And in hard times it's not unusual for small businesses to employ family doing anything. Many societies consider that more important than being "efficient".

[Ben Hartley]

I think these guys got it down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCYSXpS9keI&feature=player_embedded

One thing I've always wondered about box joints is how the hinge works. Is there a pin hidden in there somewhere? It's kind of hard to make out in the video, but there doesn't seem to be any kind of pin or hole in either of the parts.

[Timothy Miller]

Maybe they don't consider it particularly enlightened to replace a worker with an electric motor. Or maybe he's "in training" by observing. Seen many smiths at conferences more than willing to crank a blower all day for a master. Might be all of the masters sons employed in the shop. Some societies aren't so fast to put people out of work as us, even when it makes "economic sense".

Yes they are "just fitting them together", but the parts don't fall from the sky. I'm sure they manage the other steps just as fluidly.

What I see is a misallocation of human potential and labor. He is probably not even being productive enough to to cover the food he eats. If that man were put to more productive labor he could better provide for his family and contribute to the economy as a whole. I could see if the man were blind or mentally disabled that would be a place for him in that society. I bet that shop is a subcontractor to a large manufacturer they are most likely getting pennies for the work they are doing. The guy is working in a clay/dirt forge using a nut as a bolster, a poor village smithy in 18 Century Europe was better equipped. Think of how many jobs you could create if you shipped your production to Pakistan with men working under those conditions. The per capita income of Pakistan is about $1000 per person.

[MattBower]

Tempted to jump in here, but it's getting awfully political.

[maddog]

Thanks fciron. I checked out Streeter. He does give a fairly complete description but his method involves a lot of filing and cold cutting. Perhaps there is more filing than is shown in those videos, but I thought I saw the male half of the joint being stamped in a swedge. I had the impression that Peter Ross too did more forging and less filing than Streeter.

I agree with Grant. You have to look at that shop through the lens of their society. In the US efficiency is the highest value. We swap parts, employees and jobs around to get the best deal. In general, though not always, profitability trumps social ties. In the East, business is mixed in with their social and family life. Profit is just one of many considerations. They might view swapping out a cousin a nephew or even a neighbor for a machine the way you would see trading in your wife for a dishwasher and a washing machine. (I know that's going to trigger a lot of wise cracks ).

The workers in that shop all have a place in their society. It's the people who become dislocated within their societies that are more likely to be disaffected and drift towards extremism.

[Timothy Miller]

So you say turning a crank all day is a is a good use of a mans life. Get a blower set up a second forge put that guy on it and do more work. Any economist would tell you that. More stuff gets produced people have cheaper goods the level of prosperity goes up. That guy sends his kids to school and so on. Thats how the west pulled its self up and that's how the rest of the world is doing it now.

[pkrankow]

Maybe turning the crank is the equivalent of a coffee break? Take a spell from heavier work to jump back in again...

Phil

I can't seem to find that video south shore. Could you link it?
Phil

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

I gotta go with Phil. Would you want the efficiency of your operation to be judged by a 60 second clip out of your week? Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't trade off striking and cranking. Pretty hard to strike for long periods in production. How many here have tried striking all day long? I have, and I'm sure glad I was in my 20's!

"misallocation of human potential and labor" is not a factor in countries with with more people than work. As Ghandi said: "We don't want mass-production, we want production by the masses"! In other countries I've seen many operations that employed every member of the family. Everyone did what they could and everyone had a roof and food. There was no "per hour" anything. AND you'd be surprised how happy everyone was.

[fciron]

I had the opportunity to visit with a smith in Cameroon. We both spoke a little French, but we didn't get into economics, but he did ask about helping him get an electric blower for his forge. He was looking at having to spend the equivalent of a hundred and fifty dollars (currency exchange rate) to get an electric blower installed. When you look at the differences in costs of living/living standards and prevailing wages I bet that was enough to live on for a month, easy. What might appear to be a moderate expense to us, like setting up a second forge, can actually be a huge expense for someone else. (I know there's a power hammer in another video, but the fact that the smith seems to have the die upside down and be using its dovetail as a working surface would suggest repair parts are not available.)

I was in a large market and poking around in the back corners, trying to find tools or other blacksmith made stuff. I saw people who were selling sliced up inner tubes. The long strips of rubber are used for everything we do with bungees and duct tape. I also saw a guy selling used metal pallet strapping, the blued spring steel stuff. That mud furnace that your contemptuous of may be the nicest one for a hundred miles around. I would also ask why you criticize the use of a nut as a bolster, I've probably paid cash money for less effective tools and I suspect I'm not the only one.

Those pliers that they're making look a lot like the "Made in Pakistan" box-joint pliers I played with at the fitting counter last time I took my kid to get new glasses. This would seem to indicate that a man turning the crank makes more economic sense than a proper furnace, drop hammers and a tool and die shop.

I'm not arguing that either is better, I'm just saying that it takes more than ten minutes of youtube to decide anything about a culture or why people blow themselves up. Heck, for all we know, those smiths are Hindus in India.

[fciron]

bhartley, I think they drill and rivet through the entire joint after it is assembled. At least that's the way I've done it; if you drill the tongue first there's no way to line it up once it's assembled and if you drill the box first the holes will get distorted when you open it for assembly.

maddog, I think when I did it I dressed the box around a drift, less filing than Streeter did. I think he has some fireplace tongs with a forged box joint.

[Timothy Miller]

I have no contempt for those people. I merely see cause and effect. India also has problems with terrorism not just from Muslims but communists and folks of other stripes as well. I would be willing to agree with grant that the striker is trading off with the man on the blower because the work is hard. I have never been to that part of the world but they have a lot of problems. The unites states considers the Taliban toppling the government of Pakistan a real possibility and they have nukes. A limited necular exchange between Pakistan and India could ruin the worlds weather for a year or more scientists say. I guess what I am saying is if that guy got his hands on a thousand bucks to invest and some power it would change his life.

[fciron]

I have no contempt for those people. I merely see cause and effect. India also has problems with terrorism not just from Muslims but communists and folks of other stripes as well. I would be willing to agree with grant that the striker is trading off with the man on the blower because the work is hard. I have never been to that part of the world but they have a lot of problems. The unites states considers the Taliban toppling the government of Pakistan a real possibility and they have nukes. A limited necular exchange between Pakistan and India could ruin the worlds weather for a year or more scientists say. I guess what I am saying is if that guy got his hands on a thousand bucks to invest and some power it would change his life.

When you put it like that, I agree completely.

Back to talking about blacksmithing before we get in trouble.