Quenchcrack Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I finally ordered a new Diamondback 2-burner Blacksmith forge. I checked ebay and he did not have one of these for sale there so I had to pay full price. Hope it will be worth it. Prolly gonna keep by Whimper Baby for club meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian D Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I looked at the Diamondback forges and was tempted to buy one but I built my own instead. I probably ended up spending more money building my own instead of just buying one of his. (I spent around $200 in refractory material) Oh well, there is a lot of satisfaction in building your own the way you want. When you get using it, let us know how it works out. I have a friend who is interested in purchasing one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Quenchcrack, you will be more than pleased with that forge, I have the two burner bladesmith one, and if they are all of equal quality, you will be very happy, and I don't think you'll use that Whisper Baby much. (Good thing my english teacher isn't here, that was a major run-on, lol) I don't know if you considered ordering the idler valve, but it is well worth the 45 dollars, and pays for itself quickly. Instead of getting 8 hours of forging from a 20lb tank, i can get close to 12-14 hours. Of course if you do a lot of forge welding, it's less, but comparable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Interestingly, my Whisper Baby has an idler valve on it and it is 8 years old. It is a standard WOG ball valve and it is used to adjust the heat in the forge. I occasionally use it to idle the forge. I think I can buy one of these at the local Ace and rig up a way to mount it for a few bucks. I am looking forward to being able to heat steel up to a temperature beyond a bright red. Maybe my arm will not be so tired at the end of the day. But then, I might just confiscate the idler on my WB and put it on the DB. They build a Z-buner for the WB. Yeah..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 From what I have seen, Quenchcrack, an idler setup is not that hard to make. I have a picture somewhere of one I saw at a conference, when I get home this evening, I'll see if I can find it. All basic hardware store components, easily put together. Most expensive part is the two valves (one needle valve, one ball valve). I know I made a sketch of it, see if I can find that, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 From looking at the photo of the idler valve on the DB website, it appears to be a single ball valve mounted onto a fixture that can be adjusted to provide a stop to the travel of the handle. I did not see anything that looked like a needle valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) The one I took a photo of is an idler circuit, but I can't find photo now. The needle valve allows the bypass to be adjusted to just enough to keep the forge lit and hot. Open the ball valve, forge goes up to working pressure. Close it, the gas reverts back to the bypass circuit and reduced consumption of gas. A gauge can and should be added between the needle valve and first "T" fitting, so note can be made of what the optimum pressure is for idle and can be repeated. Here's a quick drawing I made using paint. I forgot the gauge in my sketch, but maybe you will get the idea of how it is built. All the fittings are, I think, 3/8" or 1/2" brass. The line in the upside down U shape is copper. Of course, I left out fittings and nipples used to connect the important parts, but that is just a matter of figuring out the plumbing. Hope this helps. I saw this on a forge built from parts supplied from Jay Hayes. The idle circuit can be mounted on a stand-off plate using pipe hangers to hold it on the plate. Mounting is up to the builder, and should be done safely. Disclaimer: I am just trying to help out. Do not attempt this if you know nothing about plumbing, gas safety, etc. Check all connections under pressure, before lighting the forge. Contact a professional at building these things if not comfortable with your own work, for safety's sake. Edited March 10, 2009 by keykeeper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Key, so the ball valve is either all the way open or shut down completely? And the needle valve trickles gas to the forge? Why can I not do it like the DB valve does? He has a set screw that can be adjusted to allow the valve to be full open or partially closed back to the same position as per the placement of the set screw. I guess I just don't know why you need the needle valve. Please explain this as we don't want accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Quench, After reviewing the DB idler, I would say the same result is achieved with less parts, but with some work. I do not know why the idler I sketched is done like that, unless it is to achieve maybe a finer control of the gas at the idle setting. May be that this one is a little cheaper/easier to build, don't know. I haven't priced the fittings/gauge/nipples lately at a hardware, but when I want one, I'm just gonna buy the setup from Jay. He is great to talk to about gas forges and very knowledgeable in the field. After looking up the price list Jay sent me, the price for his Fuel Saver Valve manifold kits vary as to the number of burners used. So more parts than what I sketched out would be needed for a 2 burner forge. I think they allow adjustment/use of each individual burner for more control depending on how much of the forge is needed ie: using one burner for small jobs vs. more than one for bigger things up to ever how many burners you have. So, really, what I posted is probably not helpful to you. Sorry about that. I will find out though about the setups from Jay and how they work, next chance I get to talk to him. I plan on buying some forge parts from him as soon as I get the cash, which I hope will be Spring Conference. Also, the fittings are 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch copper tube, I don't think any 1/2 inch is used, after looking at the price list. I'd just get an idler from DB, looks like a nice, quick little setup, by the video on their website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 Key, check out on the DB website why he will not supply a forge with independant burner controls. The guy has done his homework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 First, I can hold the burners while they are running, second who wants a burner to be at 1000F when it's not being used, defiantly not me. The idler valve is made to run the forge at the same pressure, but using less gas. You can tell from the video and from using it, that you are using less gas. When I am doing normal forge work, once the forge is up to heat, I simply just turn the forge off, rather than have it on idle. Forge for 30-60 seconds, and then flip err back on, heat in about 30 seconds, real efficent, but if you're doing larger work, like 5/8" and up, just turn it down to the point of where it's almost about to backfire back up the burner - where you get that turbulance in the burner and it sounds like a motorboat....that's bad - it should sound like whoosh, whoosh......whoosh......whoosh, and the flame will kind of flicker in the forge when the idler is set correctly. You should like it a lot if you ordered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLOB Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Quenchcrack, I've used a three burner forge with an idle circuit and independant valves for each burner. the valves are not mounted where they will get heated up from the chimney effect and with just one burner running achieved forge welding heat. it never suffered any ill effects from running that way. my new forge (that I've been too ill to fire up or even get pictures of yet) is set up the same way with the idle circuit (ball valve and seperate needle assembly shown similar to keykeepers picture) and seperate burner shutoff valves. I wouldnt consider owning a gas forge set up differently. this is the idle on my original mini forge. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Thank you, Rob, for that picture. I was having trouble explaining what I meant. I personally would trust Jay for anything related to gas forges, just based on the help and know how he has given you with your forge, which is a nice little unit. He is very knowledgeable about them. OT: Weren't you feeling a little under the weather at the Business meeting? that was a month ago. Get better buddy, good weather coming on, and you know what that means...Spring Conference. Take care of yourself. aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian D Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Quenchcrack, I've used a three burner forge with an idle circuit and independant valves for each burner. the valves are not mounted where they will get heated up from the chimney effect and with just one burner running achieved forge welding heat. it never suffered any ill effects from running that way. my new forge (that I've been too ill to fire up or even get pictures of yet) is set up the same way with the idle circuit (ball valve and seperate needle assembly shown similar to keykeepers picture) and seperate burner shutoff valves. I wouldnt consider owning a gas forge set up differently. this is the idle on my original mini forge. Rob I would be concerned about the Burners getting very hot from chimney effect. Do you use some sort of plug inside of the forge to keep the heat from blasting up the burner tube when the burner/s are shut off? I have an Idler circuit set up on my new 3 burner forge that I designed myself. I can take some pics or draw a diagram if you would like. I like to use 2 ball valves and a needle valve for mine to get a very simple, fast and repeatable method to get to idle. The needle valve also offers a fine control of flow compared to cracking a ball valve. It is flow of fuel you want to control for the idle circuit, not pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Chimney effect is going to be there no matter what. The forge is made to heat evenly, so it's going to try to do that. Also, if you turn a burner off, and put a cap on the bottom, as soon as the cap reaches the forges temperature, the burner will draw heat from it. Heat rises. Only way if you are going to have seperate burners is to put a firebrick that fits your forge opening in the forge between the off burner and on burner. That would stop any heat from reaching that burner, still it's not recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Quench, Have you watched DB's utube of the idler? The needle came on my 2 burner. The ball valve and hose goes between the tank and needle. Dennis is a great guy I picked my stuff up at his place. Going to visit soon. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLOB Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 I would be concerned about the Burners getting very hot from chimney effect. Do you use some sort of plug inside of the forge to keep the heat from blasting up the burner tube when the burner/s are shut off? I have an Idler circuit set up on my new 3 burner forge that I designed myself. I can take some pics or draw a diagram if you would like. I like to use 2 ball valves and a needle valve for mine to get a very simple, fast and repeatable method to get to idle. The needle valve also offers a fine control of flow compared to cracking a ball valve. It is flow of fuel you want to control for the idle circuit, not pressure. I haven't been able to fire my 3 burner forge up yet.....I have used Jay's old 3 burner and did not plug the burner flare. as far as I see there were no ill effects from not plugging it up. my 3 burner with idle is already plumbed and bench tested for leaks and I know the design works well......it has a needle/ball valve arangement similar to my previous picture. I think the problem with a mechanical stop on a ball valve is that the design of the valve lends itself to on/off operation, not fine tuning flow of gas...... I think I can speak for all the blacksmiths here when I say, YES we want pictures and/or diagrams. idea's are best when shared (for the most part anyways) Rob ps, Key....check you PM. pps. /D, do you have a name? its a little friendlier and easier to remember a name over symbols/letters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian D Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Here is a shot of the back of my forge. It shows the manifold and idler circuit pretty well. Here is a sketch of the circuit with idler.Idler circuit drawing.pdf ps. Sorry Rob, my name is Brian. I will see if I can create a signature with it. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 That's works essentially the same as what I and Rob are talking about, except the added safety of a main shutoff valve before the idler circuit. I do like the compactness and ease of the design though. Thanks for posting the picture. -aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Got my new 2 burner Blacksmith forge today. Looks well made. I won't get if fired up until Saturday, though. Yes, I watched his videos but I have a ball valve on my Whisper Baby and only use it to turn it off and on. Not sure I would remember to flip the leaver on every heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Pictures Quench, PICTURES! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 I will be setting up the new forge this weekend and will take a few pictures. You can see photos of the forge (2 burner Blacksmith model) at the Diamondback Forge Website. He also has some videos of the forges in action. I was unsettled by the recommendation in the set up booklet that the forge be put on top of refractory bricks due to the high heat. I haven't found a retail supplier of refractory bricks yet but I will work something out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 That's as much for liability purposes and simple common sense as a necessity. A piece of cement backer board on a couple standoffs will work well. If you have a piece os something shiny, say SS or even Al foil for a reflective covering on the backer board you're golden. Heck, a cake pan or cookie sheet filled with sand or gravel would work just fine as a heat shield too. Fire bricks would still be a better choice if for no other reason than the name. Are you getting giddy yet? Hmmmm? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted March 20, 2009 Author Share Posted March 20, 2009 Frosty, I found the HD firebrick in Houston at $2.65 each. Not good but I only need 10 or so. However, I think I will use just plain house bricks (I have a pile of those) and put the cookie pan / sand on top of those bricks first. If it gets too hot, I will go guy the HDFB. Giddy? I am just all a-quiver at the prospect of getting the forge to a welding heat! I've been pounding red iron so long, when I get it yellow, I may just break down and weep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 20, 2009 Share Posted March 20, 2009 $2.65 for full brick? That's about $2 ea. less than here. Split brick should be fine though. It's just a firewall between the forge and anything flammable underneath. I would be more concerned putting it on a steel bench top because of potential warping, you're going to smell wood burning but might not notice a warping bench till it oil cans. Just be careful hitting that yellow iron you may mash it to ruination with those great big red iron beating arms of yours! Unless you splash some of that yellow iron into your boot, NO WEEPING! Blacksmiths don't weep, unless it's for a really good reason like the wife surprises you with a new power hammer or you see someone using a pristine PW, HB or the like anvil for a torch cutting table. :mad: I expect bloodshed in the latter of course but tears would also be acceptable. Enjoy, iron is SOOOO much easier to maneuver when yellow. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.