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I Forge Iron

Blade design wk2 chat Feb 20,09

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[steve sells] to clean up rumors, I will state for the record I do plan on making the Knife we are designing and offering it to auction to raise Funds for IF upgrades. I will keep NO money from that auction its all IFI, the details have or will soon be decided by this chat;s attending members so not only will every one see what the knife actually looks like, but IFI can benefit from it financially as well, its intended to go to a IFI member, I will NOT be listing it at other web sites, NOR my own, but others aw of course welcome to come to IFI to bid. I cant stop them.

[Cool Hand] I have an old Kbar, the leather has fallen off. the bottom of the knife is held on with a steel dowel. How can I remove that dowel without bending the knife.
[steve sells] file, dremel, saw, Center punch, Any other options ? Rich haven't you rebuild a few ?
[Cool Hand] I want to add something in place of the leather, but I don't want to ruin the integrity of the handle.
[LDW] Is'nt there a butt cap on the end?
[Cool Hand] Yup, it's held in by a little steel dowel.
[Rich Hale] I only repair my own stuff/////////That in should push out but yoiu will have to make a block to put inder it to support the butt cap
[Rich Hale] Can you see the p in clearly?
[Cool Hand] I see where a single pin goes into the side of the butt cap. It does not go all the way through. just through one side.
[Rich Hale] Etch the other side I think it is a cross pin
[Cool Hand] The pin doesn't appear to go all the way across.
[Cool Hand] I finally figured out what you were talking about, you were right. After etching I can see that it IS in fact a cross pin
[steve sells] then you can just push it all the way through with a small rod.

[Rich Hale] Review the knife they designed lat week ?
[steve sells] review? ok we had side bevels and widths established, also talked about an open loop guard
[markb] Dime edge?
[steve sells] the term DIME was reference to the thickness of the cutting edge before heat treat. IF its too think it will loose heat fast and may not harden properly, also tends to warp a lot if very thin also and very this leaves nothing to remove after heat treat to remove the de-carb zone. it most always happens at the surface in the heating prior to the quench
[markb] didn't know that, good
[steve sells] we need to remove the top 2 or 3 thousands of an inch most the time to get down to "good steel" after the quench also many quenchants leave a surface film/scale that should be removed anyway
[Rich Hale] Unless you use turco
[markb] Should blade be room temp before temper?
[steve sells] NO, as the tempering should be done soon after quench, and before it cools and cracks rom thermal stress. OK the details are in the thread over in the forum, but 1.5 at base 2 at widest point, a clip points hunter
[Rich Hale] Too heavy, Hidden tang or full?
[markb] 2" wide?
[steve sells] I didn't say that Y'ALL Did last week
[LDW] 8 inches
[steve sells] I like the 1.5 but 2 is for a skinner...
[markb] I vote full tang
[steve sells] : for a do everything knife I will strongly push for full tang
[markb] This is all purpose?
[steve sells] if it has to chop it would be best to have a lot of support this one is., later we can do other styles, I will back up a little bit.

The point of this project is to show:
1) we must plan to get what we want from a blade before we start to shape it.
2) every choice we make effects the ways a blade can be used later.
3) some times this means we can not able to do all jobs equally well.

[steve sells] I have seen many just start hammers a bar til it has an edge, and they call it aA knife, maybe it is, but what is it going to be used for WILL decide on what is best fot a particular knife a thin flexible blade is good for fillet, but heavy is needed for chopping so those 2 jobs require very different blade styles

[Cool Hand]Sort of like having a goal, working out the strategy of how to make the knife the way you want it, then following up with the tactics/to do's to get it there?
[steve sells] we are trying to see how far we CAN get in a blade to do the most jobs in one blade. I was attempting to show HOW to plan a blade.
[steve sells] RH had something to add
[JJ] continuation of last week..that's good
[Rich Hale] What steve is saying that is if you just want to pound on steel that is fine and you can learn from it if you pay attention..but when the time comes that someone wants you to make a knife listen to what steve says..You want to work out an agreement with that person to make sure you both envision the knife you will make...that will do a lot for your future if you build what they want....
[steve sells] I listed 4 basics job a knife can do. STAB SLICE CHOP SAW
a stab is like starting to gut a deer the penetration, slice is a fillet action, chop like cutting branches, a saw is cutting steaks, to skinning. I am sure their are more but these basic actions all need a different profile to be Perfect, some of these combine ok, some not well at all, as I said at first a fillet and a Axe is hard to combine, but a stab, and chopping Axe is easy. a fillet and a saw aint too bad, but attempting to get all four makes troubles to the maker. when designing a blade if we remember these various functionals we will make out jobs easier if we tell the cleint from the start, IF you need to do all 4 let me make you 2 or 3 different blade to perform these tasks all well. Offer to make then a fillet knife and a great butcher knife too, they will be happier than getting one expensive knife that looks nice, but won't do much of either well
[steve sells] OK back to design, we had the width brought up again, have "we" reconsidered the 2 inch in the middle to be too wide ?
[JJ] Steve, are you suggesting certain blade and thickness profiles for each different use....
[steve sells] Yes I am, there is NO one design that can do all the cutting jobs well.

[markb] Depends on length
[LDW] have to weigh the difference between chopping and filleting
[steve sells] 8 inch is a large knife, aids in the chopping function. won't hurt fillet, or stabbing fillet marginal effected.

Edited by mod07
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[markb] If your going to make it lets go 10" lol
[steve sells] mark a 10 would be hard to use to clean a deer, forget cleaning a rabbit I was thinking 6 to 8 but, I said at the start its your blade design
[LDW] we already said it would not be good at everything but at 1.5 inches it will be good at chopping
[steve sells] 1.5w is good, so it 8 L
[markb] 8" is big
[steve sells] but be serious, as a small sword is not goot for lceaning game
[markb] true
[LDW] your hand gets tired
[steve sells] ok Materials will be limited to what I carrry in stock or can make I will not speical order anything for this project.
[JJ] 8" is considered minimum where i live for game, including filleting fish and slicing abalone. we use them on deer and hogs.
[markb] rabbit gets mutilated
[steve sells] 10 would kill a rabbit, that WAS intended
[LDW] with either end
[steve sells] I dont mind a little work, so lets talk steel
[markb] 1084?
[steve sells] what do we want for this? Usable for a mono steel blade, I have in stock now: 1045, 1095, 1087 Fine Grain, 8760m, Crucible L-6 , D-2 and O-1
[steve sells] these are what I have in thick enough stock to make a mono steel blade, also pattern welding is an option :)
[JJ] forging or stock removal steve?
[steve sells] I will forge this. I have one more blade to do after I finish this 2x2x16 billet then I can start this IFI project blade
[JJ] for new guys at this , i'd sugg4est O1 as it is forgiving.
[steve sells] as a groups here, do we think it will rasie more money in the auction to have this a pattern welded blade or a mono get more bidders/$$ ?
[Rich Hale] Mono
[steve sells] JJ .. WE as a group are designing this, I am just the one going to make it for auction at IFI to fund the a site upgrades
[JJ] is the object to teach a newer knife maker to make a good blade, or to sell a knife?
[steve sells] the design is to teach a good knife design process, you have a good point , that the best knife should come before worrying about the fund raiser later. I figured I will make and donate it to IFI just because...

[LDW] all of the steels will get sharp, I do not know which ones will hold the edge best.
[steve sells] : with final blade quality in mind, does O-1 sound like a plan ?
[Rich Hale] 0-1 is a really nice steel
[steve sells] O-1 is a steel everyone here can get with out too much trouble
[JJ] O1 is forgiving at the forge and the quench, and the vanadium in it makes it hold a pretty good edge.
[LDW] which steel can be the hardest without chipping when chopping
[steve sells] Any other opinions ?
[JJ] LDW, carbon content will determine hardness, primarily.
[steve sells] O-1 and and L-6 both take a beating but I think O-1 can get a little better edge
[LDW] but other alloys determine toughness is that not correct? it sounds great to me
[JJ] yes, but that was not your question.
[steve sells] tough and abrasion is very good with O-1, its a good all around steel for blades
[Rich Hale] I am doing a run of folders with 0-1 for the reasons yo just listed
[steve sells] there are other steels that have some things better, but then other attributes are lacking, same as with blade design, some elements increase one area, but at the expense of others
[JJ] O1 is a good choice when chopping is concerned, since it is a very flexible steel when heat treated properly. (JPH agrees in the complete bladesmith)
[steve sells] I an thinking WOODS for the scales
[Rich Hale] Steve if you get stuck on scales I will donate
[steve sells] thats cool Rich, lets talk finish when we get to that point OK ?
[Rich Hale] you will pull from the lower drawer but it will be nice
[steve sells] 8 x 1.5 O-1 blade, bevels half way up the sides. clip point. So we want anything for the spine ?
[JJ] we never discussed blade geometry did we?
[steve sells] blank, file work, saw teeth, a partial edge to assist piercing ?.....
[LDW] maybe you wont have to chop as much if you have saw teeth
[steve sells] only started the bevel for the cutting edge up the side.. I an starting the blade non cutting portions itself
[Rich Hale] Swedges on a clip point are not legal is some states
[steve sells] ok I didn't know that, lucky for me I look up local laws when I get an order.
[LDW] whats a swedge?
[Rich Hale] It is about how they define double edged
[steve sells] MANY wont allow saw teeth to be carried in public, goes back to WW1 agreement form the bayonet
[Rich Hale] Ldw it is the short tapers on the top edge of the blade above the clip oint that make a false edge
[steve sells] but a partial saw NOT at the tip is usually ok
[Knife Chat]: m_brothers has left at 10:57 pm
[LDW] ok
[steve sells] those same saw teeth could assist in a bottle opener, hacking away sea weed on a propeller
[LDW] saw teeth and a swedge to help in piercing and cutting really be illegal
[steve sells] I used my gerber saw teeth that way a lot in my fishing boat, that is why I stated near the guard
[LDW] sawing not cutting
[steve sells] near the tip violates a genivea agreement from WW1, seriously
[JJ] Gerber BMF had the saw teeth in the center of that b ig surviv al/hunting blade. and it worked really well.
[steve sells] many normal kitchen knives can not be carried in public. I have had gerber and parker dive knives, the parker, has double edge at tip, but saw on spine side hearer the guard, but isnt that over board for this, but a few inches of saw teeth file work would look nice and assist in cutting of branches in the woods
[LDW] if its a do everything knife I think this one would need both
[steve sells] both what ?
[LDW] saw and double edge
[JJ] one caution ...if saw teeth are not "SET" they are useless.
[Rich Hale] And if you are doing small work i would hold the knife by the spine right where the teeth are/////gulp
[steve sells] I don't think a rambo type survival knife is the way we started going... did w ? I thought the theme was HUNTER
[LDW]: I got carried away
[JJ] hunter does not need a saw does it?
[steve sells] as JJ pointed out IF we wanted to really saw, the teeth need to be set., I can do that, but remember skinning or fillet it may get in the way and messy in gutting a deer
[LDW] definitely when skinning, it would be grabbing on the back accidentally
[steve sells] from the start I have repeated: all our choices limit or other options, thats why there ARE so many variations and designs for blades. no ONE design can do it all
[steve sells] I am pointing out the reasons for this topic these past few weeks . its ALL a compromise, no blade CAN do it all
[Rich Hale] Have we lost ground on the design of this piece?
[steve sells] IF i add real saw blade to the spine I loose the ability for filleting so may as well go back and remove those design decisions
[Rich Hale] theoretical impracticality
[steve sells] OK guys its late. We have covered a lot and I hope we can finish this topic next week and got Handles and stabilizing next week as well.
[Rich Hale] If I send handles they will be stabilized
[LDW]Enjoyed it, Thanks everyone
[steve sells] I hope everyone has started to think about what out choices really do to effect our final blade. And that the details start before we forge.

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