Built my first ribbon burner.  Not perfect, but doable.

I am a metal caster generally, but am looking to get into making billet/hard metal objects as well.  I have a few small knives made, and wish to do many more.

My goal now is to make a variable burner forge with ribbon burners in a row, so you only use how many you need.  Knife, use one.  Machete use two, etc

The idea was to use something that didn't need burning out so I found dowel rod that fit in latex tubing to hold it straight.  I needed to leave it to dry for a few more days than I did, but in the end it was good and solid.  I didn't get a pic of the baffle I put inside it, but it lets too much unmixed through the central holes.

Very little modification was needed after pulling the latex tubes out.  It fired up well but I found was a pain to keep lit outside without something (like the cut off from a 55gal drum) creating a bit of back pressure/wind shield.  The refractory barely got hot (metal housing wasn't even warm) running below a pound of propane and my little amazon blower going full tilt.

I do have a feeling the 1 inch port is keeping the blower from doing its best work.  I feel it's got a lot more air it could mix with a larger pipe.

 

Welcome aboard Toolshed, glad to have you.

Did you read my NARB section in propane burners? The reason yours has uneven flames, larger in the center diminishing towards the edges is how you mounted your fuel air supply port on the plenum.

Move it to a wide side so it enters the plenum horizontally, maybe angled upwards SLIGHTLY, away from the flame nozzles. 

I messed with diffusers for quite a while before giving up on them and mounting the FAM (Fuel Air Mixture) supply at 90* to the flame nozzles out of frustration and a liberal dose of "what the heck." I used crayons for my flame nozzles and burned them out as the final step which was fine because the refractory I used really benefits from a thermal cure.

What NARBs are a pair of 8" Ribbon (long narrow) burners with IIRC 23 nozzles ea. I also discovered I can pull them from the burner block easily if patient using vegetable Crisco as the release agent.

FYI, NARB stands for "Naturally Aspirated Ribbon Burner." It was harder to get a 3/4" T burner to work properly in them than to cast the burner blocks and get the plenums right. 

Back to your question. When I mounted the FAM inlet on top aimed straight down on the flame nozzles the burner had very unbalanced flames. So long in the center 1/4 to burn properly and fading to empty flame nozzles at the ends. The closest thing I came up with for a satisfactory diffuser was a solid plate covering the center 1/3 of the nozzles. I drilled different patterns and sized holes, tried steel wool and other . . . stuff.

Mounting the FAM inlet in the side of the plenums evened things out nicely, NOT perfectly but good enough to get on with building and installing them. 

DRATS! I forgot how stupid difficult it is to post pics from this stupid over thought computer OS. You can't just select, copy and paste pics or files, you have to wade through a bunch of menus tormenting me with all sorts of ways to post an image in somebody else's idea of good. GRRRRRR!

I'll see if I can figure it out tomorrow when I'm less . . . unhappy with micro$oft.

Anyway, above is the basics. Let's talk.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Oh, believe me sir, I wholly perused your NARB thread. It also stands for Not ANOTHER Reil Burner.  hahaha

It has been months I have been "lurking". Before I realized Steve had approved my sign in so I posted the above.

I hooked it up last night, Air supply was my old CPAP unit so a very steady 20 (cm H2O) air pressure, I was able to achieve 1200 F with nothing more than a few refractory bricks as a 'forge'.  I wanted to test it with back pressure and it ran fine. Until I turned the propane up instead of off, then it started burning back into the plenum area.  What a racket.

Next one I make will be offset 90degrees as you suggest.  I have all the cutoff 55 gal drums I need (at $10 each, I feel like a king!!) to build them with.  PLUS I love the idea of having the port coming DOWN the side of the furnace as opposed to coming straight OUT the top.  

Anyone have REAL DATA on tangent burner placement?  i.e. having the burner at say 45deg off side?  Does direct impingement on the metal help or hurt?  I can see the 45deg not heating quite as well, but will also heat more evenly.

I would love to take time in one of our shops for real talk....

Yeahhhhhh, Windoze, Windoesnt.....Been IT tech for 35 years having to put up with the shenanigans of those goofballs.  Just bring back Win7 and make us all happy again!

I have a program called resize image that makes really small files from the gigabyte oversize stuff the phone produces.  

 

Cool, SOMEBODY who reads BEFORE asking! AND graph paper, dry erase board, etc. I think we're going to get along well. 

I'd almost corrected you on the 90* bends in the FAM supply before remembering you're building Gun burners rather than naturally aspirated. A 90* bend is beneficial for mixing the fuel and air more thoroughly. 

Is there a reason you've sketched your forge so tall and narrow?  As drawn in your sketch, the flames from your burner are directed into a corner. At that distance the increase in back pressure shouldn't be much of an issue but the flames themselves will disperse in turbulence and heat the liner unevenly.

What makes a propane forge work is transfer of energy to the forge liner where it is re-radiated as IR which heats your work. This is called a "reverberatory" furnace, I don't "know" the definition of the word in this context so I speculate it's because the flame's energy stays IN the chamber and "bounces" back and forth between the walls. 

Silly speculation I know but the IR from one wall radiates to the other walls heating it and vis versa. That's my reasoning till someone who KNOWS comes along and explains it.

Back on topic. If you orient the burner so the flame circulates in a vortex it will spend more time IN the forge chamber and distribute it's energy more evenly.

On the other hand multi orifice burners SHOULD have a softer lower velocity flame which will remain in the chamber longer. Pics and videos of ribbon burner or heck ANY forges with flame blowing out the openings are wasting fuel. If I could've posted pics of NARB, right now you'd be saying AH HAH, what about!!! It has bright orange flames billowing out the openings but that is the calcites in the refractory oxidizing as it cures.

My preference for forge shape is like yours but more mono dimensional, as wide as it is tall with a D shaped roof. Aiming the flames at the floor works but it needs to impinge on the closer side at a shallow angle, 45 max. I like the flames oriented SLIGHTLY upwards impinging the roof on the closer side in either case the flame WILL have to travel in a cyclonic motion around the Interior of the chamber hopefully a few times before exiting.

Lastly, Mikey pointed out that using a thermal baffle rather than a closed door and exhaust ports is WAY more effective. The thermal baffles are simply a flat refractory barrier across the working openings of the forge with a small gap between the forge opening and the baffle. The exhaust gasses are free to escape through the gap but the baffle is heated to incandescent which  radiates IR energy back into the forge to work for you. I am a HUGE fan of thermal baffles, especially on naturally aspirated forges where back pressure is an issue. Gun burner forges can overcome more back pressure but it's not unlimited.

I'm starting to ramble I'll close for now.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thank you much!  I absorb as much knowledge as I can, and boy-howdy this forum will have me going for a long time.  I haven't even gotten a forge built and already have a thousand steps ahead of me.

I love drawings, I also love making scale models as it lets me test and measure easily. See pics of scale model lifting tongs and a full size test.

The domed feature is from a wish to make both a forge and a furnace.  Forge for billet work, furnace for melting work.  On it's side for forge, on its end for furnace.

I have mostly abandoned that idea, but I still draw like that so I can see from a different perspective.

In casting, you want the furnace round so it swirls the flame and keeps in contact with the crucible.  I was wondering about billet work and having a similar thing, where the flame impinges on the SIDE near the metal, but doesn't directly hit the metal.  I bounce back and forth with that wasting energy heating the refractory, but then I remember most of that is being radiated back anyway, and the forge will be pretty well insulated and coated with good refractory as well as kiln washed and all kinds of crazy stuff to retain the heat.

Oh, I also figured a ribbon burner would not be really good for casting, since the upper flame ports are almost as tall as one of my crucibles it likely loses more heat UP than allowing it to swish around.

I too can go on and on about certain topics, and if there was one person I want to noodle on all he wants, it's you!  In just this one post I've re-thought multiple things, and redesigned my kit multiple times.  Now I just need to draw them out and see which ones "speak" to me.

Oh GREAT guys, he's encouraging me! 

The fingers on your lift tongs should be at least 1/2 the circumference of the crucible IIRC. I'd look it up if I were making a pair. Before asking the professional caster friend of mine. If you bend them up out of A-36 steel instead of welded conduit the natural spring in the steel will make for a softer contact and a more steady hold. The clamp (grip) will be proportional to the crucible's weight. 

No, multiple outlet burners are WAY unsuitable for melters. You want a single nozzle burner mounted below the crucible, oriented downwards slightly and almost tangential to the melter wall and a fast burner ain't a bad thing. This orientation creates a strong cyclonic motion that wants do stay low and can only advance up the melter wall because it's being forced up by the fresh flame. EVEN if you have multiple burners in the melter, their position and orientation should be the same.

The basic principle between forge furnace and melter is the same BUT the execution is significantly different. You need the flame to remain IN the furnace as long as possible to conduct the most energy to the target as possible. The crucible isn't really the target, it's contents are so you squeeze the flame between melter wall and crucible as closely as reasonably possible and keep there as long as possible. Re-radiated IR really isn't a factor in a melter.

Argh, now I'm forgetting where I was and doing to many rewrites. I need to go out and take the DR Trimmer string trimmer to some mutinous weeds for a while. The bummer being it's a brutally HOT day, a searing 70f!! The sun is beating sort of down, 61 North so it never gets real high.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

Oh, that is only the test fit set.  I would never trust a crucible to something I could bend with bare hands.

I must learn the types of irons/steels/metals you anvil bangers refer to.  That will be on one of my near-future rabbit holes.  I honestly couldn't tell you even the slightest information with regards to aluminum either.  100% of the metal I cast with is Foundium/Dumpsterium/Gavemium/Watavium.   I am a tinkerer, a workshop rambler.  I don't do this for any more than kicks and giggles.  Granted, I would love to make simple trinkets for sale, but that's a stretch goal. hah

61 north, wow, I've visited family in Anchorage, Fairbanks, Juneau before.  Loved it up there, but I only saw it in the summer....As for taming weeds....Yeah, I don't play by the rules much.  I grew up in a time when learning was followed by dad saying "Hurt, don't it?"

Here I am derailing my own thread!  haha  At least the first part was on track.

Uh HUH. A common beginner mythtake is thinking they have to learn all the metal types to do any blacksmithing. There are only a couple things you really need to know. NEVER put plated anything in the forge! Galvanized has a much worse reputation than it deserves. Chrome on the other hand is a killer, a true carcinogen. Breath a little hexavalent chrome and it WILL give you cancer, probably of the lung but it doesn't discriminate. 

All you need to know to pic steel for the forge is #1, is it rusty? and #2 if not rusty will a magnet stick? Some modern alloys are real grab bags of scrap and come without type analysis.

I encourage folk new to the craft to buy new steel. I don't know about your area but here a 20' stick of 3/8" square cost something like $25 last time I looked. Ask the guy loading your vehicle to cut it in half, I've only ever met one who wanted to apply the cut charge. Turned out he was an office guy who liked to wander around the yard getting in the real guy's way. If you ask at the counter they charge by the cut and it can be more than the price of the steel. Take a hacksaw, with the right technique and a little practice you can cut 1/2" sq in about 20 seconds.

The REAL benefits of using new steel are #1 it's consistent, every time you take a piece to the anvil it will behave just like the last one so you don't have to devote time and brain sweat figuring out how to treat it. #2, it's clean and won't dull your saw, chisel, etc. #3 it's straight so you can bend it to your will without having to straighten it first.

Once a person gets a working handle on the skill sets of blacksmithing they'll find evaluating mystery steel much easier and can add that skill to their mental tool kit. 

Same applies to teaching yourself two completely different metal crafts at the same time. Casting is especially D A N G E R O U S to health, body, innocent bystanders and property. Take an extension class at a local college or join a casting club! Aluminum especially is always an alloy, even finding pure is hard and very expensive. The list of scrap you list should be taken to the scrapper, never put in your melter!

Just ONE simple mistake, sometimes something invisible to you can cause the melt to be blown out of the crucible and splattered 30' plus in every direction. Nothing can take the desire to enjoy the foundry like a face or shoe full of 1,100f molten aluminum. How do you thing YOU'LL feel if a couple of the local kids are standing 15' away when it happens. Did I say WHEN it happens? Even experienced master casters have a crucible or more likely a ladle of melt "pop" and get on everything within a 30' radius.

Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

I would love to get the forge built for this (and it's brothers) soon.  I need to get more kaowool and probably another bag of castable refractory.  Still waffling on the shape, but will likely go with round and a hard firebrick floor for now.  I dont' see myself using fluxes at this time so should be good for now.

Understood on the steels.  I would love to work with known+dirt cheap.  Researching steels to forge always brings me the odd numbers I had no clue about, and were freaking EXPENSIVE to boot...Hence the Findium.  3/8ths huh?  Hadn't thought of that.  Was searching for half and larger.   You brought one piece of information I really needed that not one google search has provided.  Did you know A-36 doesn't exist?  Unless you know to type in that PRECICE thing....I've researched forging for a long while, and this is honestly the first time I have ever heard of it.  I can tell you that by the UNS categories that should be aluminum.  hahaha  Really, the reason I got on this site specifically is because all roads lead here (as they should)   I read a LOT of posts here, granted not all yet, but months worth.  You've now seen me for a couple days, and I have spent as much time for months reading.  Also granted a lot of that time is getting rabbit-holed, like steel grades.

I have looked up A-36, and Alro steel near me should have what I need.  Looking like $700 for a 20foot section, delivered, $130 steel alone.  Not bad if you're a zillionairre.  Truly I have seen that price from $25 to now $700.  Idiot computer algorithms don't look at zip codes, even though it asks for it....

I have been casting aluminum about 10 years now.  I have always had a solid respect for anything involving tools all my life. I have not been the recipient of a steam explosion yet (knocks on wood).  

I learned after a few pains to be really cognizant of where things are and what 'state' they're in. 

Most times, if I've been working with "a substance" it IS GONNA BE HOT.  Cutting, drilling, it gets that respect.  

I can play the flippant guy because I take a minute to think about how things can go badly, and how to avoid, and then I remove the guards.  Always expect the worst thing to happen and sometimes it doesn't because you've already envisioned how to NOT make that thing happen, even without the guards.  Hopefully y'all realize I'm half kidding. I remove the guards until I get a faceful of sparks, then I put them back on.

Yeah, Frosty, we would talk each others ears off if we ever met.

I'd be happy to play this game but there are or were around 50,000 subscribed members, of which pre-covid maybe 0.5% posted. Most of those people have zero experience, tools or PSE and many are kids who don't have the experience to safely evaluate an action let alone any sense. They ARE immortal after all.

Twisting the dragon's tail, "doing dangerous things" is fun and if you wish to, it's you lookout.

I REFUSE to discuss recklessly dangerous activities let alone encourage other people's children to try them. You and I may know how to take appropriate precautions and where to find out if we don't. 

Frankly I'm surprised we both haven't gotten a written warning for talking this close to the rule's limits on safety. 

If you wish to talk about things I'm good with it. BUT if you can't or won't emphasize SAFETY FIRST and not just say it, or you're going to treat basic safety like a joke, we're done.

Frosty The Lucky.

I hear ya, brother.  No more line skirting!  Safety first and foremost!

As an aside, I went by my Alro Steel supplier and bought myself a load of A36 3/8 rod.  Yes, I put the cart before the horse.  Now I MUST build that forge so I can use that metal.

The salesperson was really nice, and super helpful.  One 20' section was $51, FIVE 20' sections was $85....Had them cut into thirds for easy transport in my Highlander.

Heading down to the shop now to see about that forge for my ribbon burner

I need to apologize, I went off, I should've handled that better. 

Ayup. The first time you cross the first quantity price break is pleasant  surprise. One of these days you need to buy a couple tons. 

Harbison Walker has more than one outlet in Mi. If one is within reasonable distance pick up a sack of Kast-O-30 li. It's a 3,000f high alumina "insulating" refractory. 1" 8lb Kaowool or equivalent. Preferably the refractory blanket that will dissolve and be flushed out of your lungs, or B A D N E S S things can happen to people's primary oxygen exchange apparatus. Think a cross between silicosis and mesotheleoma. 

When / if you go by HBW for some Kasto lite, check out the K-26 or whatever the newest light weight IFB, insulating fire brick. A case of them, a sheet of concrete backer board and a 1/2" T burner makes a very effective "Brick Pile" propane forge. You get a couple forges like pictured before but the price break on the IFBs covers it.

Below is a pic of a club project build, single 1/2" T burner, bolt together brick pile forge. The club bought enough to build 30+/- nearly identical forges, the interior dimensions (The ONLY dimensions that count!) are 4.5" x 4.5" x 9" and IIRC take 10 IFBs, about 6' of thin as available 2" angle iron, maybe 8' of all thread, nuts and incidentals. This isn't what I designed but being a club project everybody had to include their "good" idea. Happily somebody managed to talk the cooks out of actually ruining the soup.

This pic was taken about 5 minutes after it was lit for the first time and piece of 1/2" rnd. was to forging temp in maybe 3, welding heat just after this pic and it was a sparkler before people stopped taking pics, a couple minutes after this shot.

A number of the club members are professional bladesmiths one anyway full time and several use one of these almost exclusively.  It's not only a surprisingly effective little forge and economical to build and operate.

Frosty The Lucky.

Oh, my friend, no need to apologize, That's on me for being flippant with my words.  You were absolutely correct in dressing me down in that instance.  This is no game, and the new folk need to know that.  Just because I have  learned how to NOT get hurt, doesn't mean I get to flaunt it.

Now, back to our regular programming.

As I said, I stopped in to my new toy store, they also have cutoff material for sale in the main office, just walk in and grab-pay-go.  Price list attached.

Last night I cut off another section of a 55gal drum to make a forge body.  The sections are approximately 9" wide.  I'm cutting them 16" long for this first try.  I am probably going to home-brew the insulator with perlite and some waterglass (sodium silicate) I made a few years ago.  Then coat with a castable refractory and kiln wash.

The drawings show a round section on top.  I am hoping to be able to have the ribbon burner on a plate that can be rotated to put heat either lengthwise or crosswise as needed.  My thinking here is that I don't always want to heat a long bit, sometimes I will just want a couple inches hot.  With materials this inexpensive, I can dream and invent at will.  Plus if it doesn't work out I still have the material to repurpose.

 

That's a mighty big forge, just shy of 1,300 cubic" If you were using NA burners it would require 4 ea. well tuned 3/4" burners to be sure of reaching welding heat. If you used 8, evenly distributed, well tuned 1/2" NA burners interior heat would be very even.

Unfortunately it's economy would suck great gobs of $ out of your wallet just to bring to temperature let alone spend a day using.

You see people recommending perlite/waterglass as an insulating refractory all over the web. Bear in mind all you need to be an internet "expert" is a smart phone and connection. 

Perlite has in general a melting temp near 900C +/- or 1,500-1,700f. It varies depending on the ore source. Ore analysis is always listed as approximations eg. 70-75% sio2. Other sites may vary 5+%. So Perlite has a general ingredient list, depending on the eruption location, cycle, etc.

What it is in general is hydrated obsidian which was (probably depending on eruption, location, yada yada) condensed from the molten cloud in the presence of water. So, perlite ore is (in general) around 3-4% water and when heated to "softening" temperature the minerally bonded moisture expands the softened obsidian as it is driven out. Here's what Wiki says. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perlite

It's great insulation, as good as most ceramic wool refractories like Kaowool but is it "refractory"? 8lb.Kaowool has a working maximum temp of 2,600f. That may have changed, it's been years since I checked but it serves well enough for now. 

Compare that to perlite's melting temp somewhere between 1,500f - 1,700f.

The little brick pile forge above is approx 220 cu" and is driven by a single 1/2" T burner. It heated the piece of 1/2" rnd. in the picture to sparklers in 3-4 minutes from a cold start. Steel melts at approx. 2,700f depending on whatever was in the scrap stream when it was made.

Perlite CAN be made to use as the insulating outer liner but you have to put a lot between it and the hard refractory flame face. You CAN do this by making the flame face extra thick say 1/2" or so and applying a kiln wash containing a large-ish % of zirconia flour.

My final reason for discommending perlite, sodium silicate as an insulating outer refractory? Sodium silicate has a significantly lower melting temp that perlite. It's largest contribution to this "refractory" recipe is it helps seal the perlite so it doesn't absorb moisture from the air so YOU as the operator won't have to warm it slowly t prevent potential steam explosion. NO the forge isn't going to explode like "Sultana" but it certainly steam spall and blow H O T chips of your flame face refractory out the forge opening. 

Perlite is used in potting soil and garden soil because it absorbs and holds water, it is literally "hydrophilic." Meaning it LIKES water, attracts and holds it.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Yup, one look at the final dimensions in real life and I immediately started a new build. 

Cut one whole section, node-to-node, of a 55gal drum.  The nodes left on I think really help the thin metal hold the shape.

Cut crosswise about 32 inches long.

Bent that into a circle with the ends overlapped and put some bolts through.

Had just enough kaowool to cover the inside with about 1" thick and rigidized.

Ran with that for about an hour just to see what might happen and it did an OK job. Burner in this orientation did get a piece of 3/8" red hot, but I think having it point more directly down on the workpiece might do me a bit better.  There was zero forge scale on the workpiece the couple times I brought it out. This will be my testing forge from here out. 

I coated the kaowool with some refractory and let it sit overnight.  Will kiln wash that today and see what difference that makes.  I did a dumb thing and put refractory on the hard kiln brick I used as the floor, so will probably try to pry that out so it can be a movable floor I can rotate the forge around to test different burners and angles.

I still have enough of the cut off to make another this size.  I'm going to order more kaowool and some good refractory in the coming weeks to build one of these for real.  

 

What is the inside diameter and length of the chamber? It's also wide open at both ends. The open ends allow the flame to escape long before it can transfer energy to the flame face. You are measuring the SHELL again. You need to do the arithmetic BEFORE putting things together. I don't usually do this but it's been a while. 10" id shell - 1" x2 refractory = 8" - call it what 1/2" x2 for the refractory? 

What is some "refractory?" There are hundreds of various refractories but only a few formulated to withstand direct flame contact with propane. Propane is VERY chemically active at high temperature so you need to use an appropriate hard refractory. Rigidizer is NOT a refractory, it literally hot cements ceramic wool fibers together where they cross so they're less likely to break loose and float around in your breathable air. It makes the blanket more rigid which makes it more resistant to getting banged around when you put stock in and out.

TWO layers of rigidized 1" Kaowool or equivalent. 1" is insufficient insulation, more than 2" does nothing worth the expense.

The only water setting hard refractory I know of is Kast-O-lite 30li. It is a bubble refractory meaning it contains very small hollow silica spherules as part of the aggregate to make it lighter in weight but they also form evacuated voids which slows thermal transfer (insulation). Best for our use it has an alumina binder rather than a silicate as most refractories like mortars used to cement fireplace bricks. Just because it says "refractory" doesn't mean it will do the job. Refractory has become a merchandizing buzz word, like "vintage, antique, etc." have on Craigslist.

The problem with a silica binder in a forge is molten borax based welding flux is extremely caustic and dissolves silica. If you're NEVER going to try forge welding it doesn't matter the flame face only has to withstand the max temp your forge can generate. Make sense?

Probably a better thing to do than read my rambling here, is to do some reading in "Forges 101" here started by Mike Porter a while back, it contains a lot more specific details but covers building a propane forge start to finish in detail. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/47439-forges-101/

If you read through this section you'll have a better base of knowledge so you can ask better questions and folk who answer you won't have to explain away myth and ideas from folk with zero knowledge or experience.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

I'm semi retired (Meaning full time job but an empty nest), I have a lot of time for testing stuff out (SAFELY Mind you, hearing protection, eye protection gloves and all).

I may have to go back to just lurking until everything is done.  You are gonna worry yourself to death over all the little fiddly stuff during my testing posts (Like probably wondering why I didn't add APRON to my safety list above....). 

Yessir, I know quite a bit about what kaowool can and cannot do.  I use what I have on hand, with the bankroll I have.  If it fails, I'm out 10bucks....I don't go buy 100bucks of kaowool to test with.  (Notice I didn't have to resort to the perlite, which would have still worked in my case, I've used it to melt aluminum without it slagging)

I know quite a bit, but not everything, about refractories, mixes, and whatnot.  I like experimenting.

I am an experimenter, it's what I do all the time.  I test stuff to failure, kinda like Elon Musk, but with less bankroll.  ;-)

I wanted to see what that burner could do.  It wasn't strong enough, YET, I'm testing.  I didn't measure the external temp of the shell, but the paint burned off the bare metal endcap/cover I was using.

Just because you didn't see a cover on the end doesn't mean it wasn't there.  I was testing.  With cover, without cover.  Oh, next test I added some refractory to the end cover, to test it.  I will also be rigging up some kind of front door/porch as well. 

The burner was placed at the 1:00 position for testing.  It will be moved to the 12 position now that I know more (from testing) about the flame pattern.

The "refractory" I put over my massive 1" kaowool, will be in testing, just to see what it can do.  I'll chip that off, or cover it with something else if it lives.  The inside of this particular forge will shrink....Lots as I add more layers of stuff I will be testing.

Everything is drying now, next will come some kiln wash and drying that for a day or so....It's gonna fall apart, and I'm still out like 10 more bucks....cut off from the drum, 5-6 Screws, wire mesh, maybe pound of the "refractory", couple cups of water....OK only about 7bucks....

AH, please don't let me drive you into the lurkosphere! I've just been doing this for something like 40 years and am still climbing the learning curve.

Got you beat though, less than 2 years after I retired, I was almost killed by a great white . . . birch. I was felling a tree and it kicked back crushed my right foot, broke the ankle, broke 3 ribs on my left side and most if not all on my right side, broken neck and fractured my skull in a couple places. I was kept in a chemically induced coma for 10 days - 2 weeks.  I've been recovering since. I pulled that stunt day before our anniversary though I'd have to ask Deb what year. Things are a little hazy for I don't know how long.

Before the accident we were in great shape financially, I retired from the State of Alaska with a full 30 years, really nice bank account I've always spent less than I make, great medical, etc. And Deb brought what she got for selling her farm in the UP of Mi. plus savings, etc. and she was still working at a dog training facility. 

Afterwards we make it, my retirement is still coming in with a little social security from both of us. Very limited income now. The accident excellent insurance and all pretty well depleted our savings. Even with friends kicking in what they could we squeeked by.

Boy, I got going on back story didn't I. Even after all these years it still helps to talk about it. Not like at first but still.

I understand not wanting to spend more than necessary. 

So, here's something to consider. Put 1" of perlite and water glass against the shell and 1" of rigidized ceramic blanket inside that. It may not be quite as good as 2" of kaowool but close. Of course there are no rules saying you can't apply perlite waterglass in a thicker layer. Hmmm?

Here's a pro tip. Instead of buying Kaowool or equivalent ceramic blanket try calling around a company that works on furnaces, boilers, etc. They MIGHT let you collect rems and scraps from the dumpster or if you're a charming devil let you have trimmings from their shop. 

Another pro tip. Join a local smithing club or claim membership when you're talking to the supply guys, they might give you a commercial discount in hopes of a new market with local blacksmiths. 

Hmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

WOW. That's a story indeed.  The more of your posts I read the more the LUCKY part comes out.  

So, here's the trick with the reading 95 pages of the Forging 101....90 pages of rambling for 5 pages of real material.  Yeah, I have time, but that's not how I like spending it.

I'm collecting gems into a text document when I find them.  I call them the I Forge Iron Gold.

And back to the thread!  hah  Yup, I have done the rigidized kaowool over the perlite before and ran a pretty good amount of heats through it.  I think I put satanite or something similar on it in a REALLY thin coat.  I really don't think it ever failed actually, I just had to move. and leave stuff behind.

I started dabbling in "refractories" (yes, that is vague on purpose) about 5 years ago, and stopped dabbling about 4 years ago, so basically, I'm picking up where I left off before moving to Michigan.

Funny you advise on the smithing club, because I just signed a waiver and a check to become a member of the Michigan Artist Blacksmith Association today.  I interested me more because the person I am writing to is a little over an hour from me, so I know folks are probably closer than that to me.

Great minds think alike?  Actually, I have already done research into ABANA, but not sure they held my interest for some reason.  Maybe if I get to making things to sell/trade/whatever.

I didn't get down to the shop today so no more work on the pig, I'm gonna find some high temp pink paint now.  

HUH, only 94.7% yak to 5.3% useful info eh? Better than I thought, you should maybe re-read it I think you're a few points off.

That's always been a problem on an open forum, you get lots of people just piping in without really having anything to say. Lots of "I heard," Everybody knows, etc." comments.

It's all useful, helps sharpen your BS filters. You never know though, I've heard some great ideas from people who's opinion wasn't polluted by knowledge. That's why I love having kids at my demos, they make some profound observations cause they don't know no better.

There's a knack to reading archived threads. I skim the thread titles, then the post titles, then skim selected posts. I give weight to authors depending on their knowledge and skip past some that aren't worth reading.

It's harder when you aren't familiar with the cast of characters and unfortunately the forum isn't near as active since Covid. We used to get more posts in an hour than we get in a day now. <sigh>

I'll have to come back to your post, I got to rambling again. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.