Fly press users/???

[racer3j]

Is anyone here presently using a fly press? I am really seriouly considering one? My socket swage block of O6 and end mills were taken to machine shop today. I discussed making swage blocks for the chisel blades themselves- they think they can do a set at a bearable price. 1/8th" width to 1" wide by 8ths-from six to 7 inches long before adding the welded on sockets. I read what I could in links and sites. Thanks, Mike

[arftist]

Better than a full time volunteer. More acurate too. What would you like to know?

[racer3j]

A size recommendation would be good. The only comparison information I have so far is at Old World Anvils. I would be making tall skinny funnel-like sockets for socket chisels. The sockets are about 2 1/4" to 2 3/4" tall. I guess I am thinking that it would take the bigger types to do the sockets based on stroke; the dies would eat up too much of that vertical dimension-I think? And, what length die will work- if looking at the front of the press and thinking the length of the die set is perpendicular to the press body, how far side to side can the force be reliably expected to transfer? Thanks, mike

[arftist]

Hey jet, sorry I had to work a bit there. Almost recovered from it. I followed a little bit of your post about the chisel sockets. Trying to figure what your game plan is here. Are you just making sockets? Not chisels with sockets? Are you planning to draw them?As in press a form into stock, until it deforms into a socket shape? I would consider rolling a blank around a tapered mandrell, and welding the seam. As to the size selection, I wish mine was bigger. You can do small work on a large unit, but not vice versa. Buy the most capacity you can afford.

[Ian]

I now own a Denbeigh No 6 flypress (recently aquired) after using a No 3 for nearly a year as work required for my old 'boss' I had to have one. Flypresses are brilliant tools, especially from a noise point of view, and with the right tooling can do a HECK of a lot of work. Last job I used the No 3 on was a set of 8ft by 5ft flatbar gates (thats 8ft x 5ft each side, style wise think portcullis) we made dies to sink the verticals into the horizontals prior to hand riveting. Also made all the rivets with it too (hundreds) The No 3 had no major problems sinking 5mm x 50mm flatbar at a yellow heat, two or three fast heavy bumps. I'd go as big as you can afford or have space for as you can use a light touch on a bigger press but would have to use lever bars to get more torque on a smaller unit (NOT ADVISED AT ALL).

Edited July 19, 2008 by Ian

[racer3j]

Thank you, gents. The sockets are welded onto the blade. The blades would be of the bevel bench chisel type. The socket swage being made for me right now,is a chunk of O6 and two different size 2* and 3* tapered end mills and matching male punches. They are doing it out of past friendships and curiosity. Two holes of each size are not bored through to an opening at the bottom- one each size pierces through. Partly because I am not sure which will work better and also because I could make a socket a bit over-length if needed.

Just picture a bar of steel with six funnels "drilled in it. lay a piece of orange steel over the hole, and swage down into it with matching punch. I have been advised that rolling one on a cone mandrel will take great skill-I don't have that.mike

Edited July 20, 2008 by racer3j

[HWooldridge]

If you are talking about taking a long tapered punch and driving it into a long tapered hole with hot steel between and expecting a socket, I think you may have a fight on your hands. That is basically a deep drawing operation and takes a lot of oomph - although I suppose a progressive die would work and maybe that is what you are describing. Now, on the other hand, a half-funnel shape in a block of steel with matching tapered mandrel will allow a quick roll up - although there will obviously be a seam down the side.

[racer3j]

That is the 2+2=4 I have been working toward in my questions about wrapping the coupon around a cone mandrel. To that end, I had asked about milling a tight groove along the vertical of a cone and using it to give the initial grasp of the coupon edge. In fact, I have a swage block with the half-depth cones, but these particular ones are too big. If I need to, I can get the block sawed down the lengthwise middle and have the open swage block.mike

[HWooldridge]

If it were me, I might do both methods, one as a rough-in and one as a finish pass. The first would be to roll the cone in the swage over the mandrel. No slot needed in the mandrel - you simply heat the steel and sink it then wrap the edges with the hammer around the mandrel (while still in the swage). Next, reheat that blank, drop it in the form and drive the mandrel in to finish the shape.

We also should consider the math on the material. If you use a 1" handle, you'll need 3.1416" of material to encircle it. Of course, that is more precise than needed so 3-1/4" wide will work. You could either cut this from sheet metal or flatten it from bar stock. Theoretically, 1/2" round will get you pretty close to do this. Here is the math:

3.25"x1/16" = .205
Vol of 1/2 rd = .196

This only leaves you .009 short but the forging won't be a perfect 1/16 thick all the way across. Using 1/2 round tool steel would allow you to make the chisel and socket from one piece without welding, which is usually good practice. It would also give you enough material on the working end to make most normal chisel sizes.

[arftist]

What he said.

[racer3j]

A big thank you. The two stage cone process sounds ideal -basic to refined. It will be a long time for me to get to where I can do a one-piece socket chisel. I am a pretty well experienced O/A weldor, so mating the cone socket with a blade should not leave excessive clean up of that union. Along the fly press line of thought, would an Appalachian Power hammer swage orange O1 and/or forged cable damascus into a female die representing the shape of a bevel-edge chisel?regards, mike

[HWooldridge]

I don't know how stout an Appalachian PH is but I'd guess "yes" if you get the stock hot enough. Maybe someone who has one can chime in.

[SGropp]

A fly press is basically a pushing tool.If you are used to forging with a hand or power hammer,the subtle power and control of a fly press takes some to appreciate.
I was making just such a shape the other day for an altogether different purpose, but the result is more or less the same as a chisel socket.
The flat stock was forged or cut into a fan shaped taper. A tapered half round bottom swage was made and fitted to the table of a #6 fly press. The inside profile of the swage was the same as the desired outside profile of the finished socket. The top tool in the ram of the press was a tapered mandrel profiled to match the desired inside profile of the socket. This was welded to a long stem that fitted the tool holder in the ram. The top tool looked like an inverted ''T''
The depth stop on the press was set to bottom out in the swage just shy of the thickness of the socket stock.
At a full yellow heat, the prepared tapered stock was laid lengthwise across the bottom swage, The top tool pushed first the center down and then by carefully rolling the blank in the swage and pushing with the top tool the piece was almost closed up to the final hollow cone.
On the next heat , a tapered mandrel was inserted and the socket closed up on the flat dies of a small power hammer.
One more heat ,with the mandrel back in place ,the piece was cleaned up and refined at the anvil with a hammer .
I made them this way as the socket was formed on the end of a parent bar, which would be one way to make a one piece socket chisel.
If I was just interested in making tapered sockets , I'd forge them on a power hammer out of a piece of seamless pipe ,either on flat dies or in a tapered v bottom block. It could be trued up over a tapered mandrel on the last heats.
I have a #5 and #6 fly press, both from Old World Anvils. The #5 is quicker in action but the #6 is much more powerful and in my shop gets the most use. The limiting factor is how much effort is required to turn the flywheel to the up position.My guess is that a #6 is the maximum size for one man operation.
Forming the socket the way you described does not seem quite feasible, too much material to move in one step even with lots and lots of power. Maybe it would work in a series of progressively deeper dies.

[arftist]

Racer3j, why does it have to be a long time before you can make a one piece chisel? Anyway, An appalachian power hammer can be as stout as you make it. It is a simple design, that lends itself to well thought out and engineerind modification. In fact, I am pretty sure Jerry will help you engineer it to any reasonable size, if you buy his plans. Asuming you have a power hammer, a one piece chisel becomes even more realistic. This by the way, is a perfect application of spring steel. If I were to set up for it, I would forge the blade with the power hammer, flatten the socket side with the power hammer, use a bottom swage in the flypress, with a tapered top fuller in the flypress,do a heat of however many blanks you can fit in your forge(gas forge), switch the top tool, to a swage, insert blank and tapered mandrell, refine in flypress. If that was not clear, I will explain it better.

[racer3j]

Actually both of you have given real food for thought. I appreciate the time taken to give clear options.mike