reiter/kuhn k-0/KO 26kg

[Dan P.]

I have very recently come into possession of a Reiter K-0 air hammer.

It has not been run very much recently. I know nothing about air hammers (and very little about anything else for that matter, but that's another story), but I am concerned that I should not commit some regrettable faux pas when I fire it up for the first time, my main concern being lubrication, how it supposed to happen, how often, etc. The tup is up, but nonetheless seems quite dry. I attach photos of the hammer and what I presume is the oiler. Also tips concerning oil type and also greasing appreciated.

My other question is about positioning, particularly concerning vibrations, etc. Would one expect a need for isolation at the floor level with a 26kg hammer? It is sitting on a big fork-off block of concrete sheathed in steel, which is in turn mounted on four "EFFBE Barrymount" anti-vibration shoes. 

The oiler has a fun little sprung cap, but also a little sort of dial, which I presume is to regulate the oil flow.

[Dan P.]

After a bit of necessary re-wiring this hammer is back up and running and everything seems to be working well. 

Unfortunately the layer of what presumably was once some kind of vibration absorbing material has perished utterly, shattered, and worked itself loose.  That means that the whole hammer will have to be lifted off its inertia block and material relayed, which is a pain but not a huge deal. If anyone could recommend a replacement for it, especially any members in the UK, I'd be very grateful.

Brand names or generic names for this type of material would be appreciated.

 

 

[Alan Evans]

I missed your earlier post somehow.

If your are referring to the mat between the hammer frame and inertia block, try getting in touch with Richard Quinnell at Rowhurst Forge. He use to import and market the Reiter. I used a broad conveyor belt from AC belting in Gloucester to go between the Alldays 1cwt frame and the 30mm base plate I mounted it on. The base plate in turn was on rubber buffers matching the ones under the Reiter hammer, about Ø150mm (Ø6") and 125mm (5") high.

I cut a 50mm (2") slot through the 175mm (7") concrete floor slab all around both hammers to isolate any vibration from the walls of the building.

Do a search on here for Reiter info...I have posted a few times about hammer installation and my maintenance system. Other similar hammers are Kuhn, Seinhler and Gruell.

Basically the handbook on my 50kg Reiter refers to the oiler being set so that it uses a sight glass full per day and that the main bearings, big and little ends should be greased weekly.

I took that to be if the hammer was running all day. So having arrived at a drip setting that would get used in 8 hours, I put a chalk mark on the wall every time I filled it...maybe I only used it for a couple of hours one day, one hour the next, four hours another, etcetera. every time there was 5 chalk marks on the wall I put a line through it and put a pump of grease into the grease points.

The only problems that I have had were due to over lubrication. The blow off valve would stick now and then and needed cleaning off. And after fifteen years or more I had to replace the belts because I had over greased the main bearing and the excess had dribbled onto the belts. Fairly honourable faults.

Have fun with it. If you want to drop by and took at the tools I have for mine, get in touch.

Alan

[Dan P.]

Thanks for the leads Alan. I will be in touch soon about a visit. I have indeed read all your Reiter posts (I think have read everything about Reiters/Kuhns in English on the internet, which isn't much really), but as I learn more about my own hammer I'll have to reread them to get the full benefit.

I am currently learning the hard way about over oiling; I seem to have managed to turn the thing into a giant oil atomizer! Which is lovely. 

Two further questions about oil;

1. I'm just using motor oil. Is that right?

2. The oil on the tup comes off a kind of indigo-black that looks to me the very image of very fine steel dust. This freaks me out, as it suggests that the tup will eventually be whittled away to disfunction. Is this fear reasonable, can anyone advise?

Also, Alan, or anyone else who might be kind enough to share their experience; When this hammer is about to engage the workpiece, i.e. about to give something some welly, whether the ram is relatively high (as when using a top tool) or low (as when working thin/small stock), it makes a clanking or knocking noise. The hammer works beautifully, beautiful control, surprising amount of wallop at full tilt, but the noise doesn't quite sound right. It also makes this sound in a rather angry way if the foot lever is compressed too quickly, and the hammer is not really capable of doing single hits, though I have read somewhere that small hammers generally aren't.

The hammer is not yet in its place and is not particularly level, so perhaps that has something to do with it. Maybe its just a sound air hammers make? Perhaps its a common, hopefully minor, adjustment that needs to be made?

I was thinking it was either because the hammer is not level, or otherwise perhaps the control valve needs adjustment (it says something in the literature about the control valve needing periodic re-adjustment).

Any and all input welcome!

[Alan Evans]

I have always used  ISO 32 hydraulic oil as that it what was the equivalent of the oil in the handbook. Ptree on here might be able to give you chapter and verse...but either Hydraulic oil or Compressor oil are more appropriate than engine oil in air hammers. I use ISO 96 in the Alldays as that was the nearest equivalent to Castrols Massey PH when they stopped producing that. 

As I said above the only problem I have had is with gumming up the blow off valve which then did not seat/seal properly...dismantle and clean solved it...it did it half a dozen times over the first few years I had it until I sussed the reason. The symptom was that the tup went up too high into the cylinder and would not come down.

I always park the tup on a block so that the machined surfaces of tup and cylinder align, thus neither is exposed to grinding dust. I also give the tup a wipe over and a squirt of clean oil before I start up if it has not been used for some time.

Now you come to mention a knock, I remembered the only mechanical failure/renewal I had and that was the little end. As far as I remember that is just a plain rod end so you would probably be able to get a replacement from AC Belting if Richard Quinnel is no longer stocking them. Such a long time ago I forgot about that.

To identify where the knock is coming from, the old school method (which I used) is to get a long screwdriver; stick one end on various points of the ticking-over hammer and the other end in your ear. Preferably put the rounded handle end in you ear! You will be able to hear the knock and will be able to identify the source quite easily. Doctors call a device with a similar  function a stethoscope.

The other thing I have done to prevent the oil haze in the atmosphere is to build a plenum chamber and feed both air inlet and exhaust into that. it has reduced not only the oil in the atmosphere but halved the chuff noise...well worth doing.

Alan

[Alan Evans]

My oiler is set at only a click or two off closed by the way. If the the hammer has not been used for some time the spring ball valve in the bottom of the oiler sometimes needs a tap with a hammer handle to get it off the seat in order to start it dripping. The valve is operated by vacuum of the master cylinder and a bit of oil is pulled into the air on each stroke.

The oil in your oiler does look very dirty. Be worth cleaning it all out and starting afresh. The oiler does need to be kept fairly clean so you can see the oil drip through the sight glass circular windows in the tube between the reservoir and the valve body...one of the start up routine checks.

Alan

[Dan P.]

I did go round the hammer with a screwdriver stuck in my ear, but it didn't tell me much. The knocking sound is absent when the hammer is idle, and as luck would have it didn't make an appearance when the hammer was engaged. Strange... I did open up the back (hammer was OFF!) and give the connecting rod (piston rod?) a good wiggle, as it occurs to me that that would be the main source of clanking noises from worn bearings. But it seemed sound, not that my method was particularly scientific.

I think I need to get this hammer on a new mat and level before I will find out what, if anything is going on.

[Alan Evans]

If the clunk is caused by it rocking on bits and pieces of the mat and under load the frame can come in contact with the base it could be...without hearing it it is difficult to diagnose. Obviously difficult to diagnose even when you can hear it!  

Wooden wedges between hammer and base to take out any movement?

When every thing is connected it is a bit difficult to get any movement by wriggling. The best way would be to get a lever so you can just rotate the flywheel backwards and forwards, pull on the belts or whatever you can get at.

I had a scale build up behind the anvil block at one time, it is held in place with spring bolts so that it can move under extreme pressure without shearing anything, another possible source for a knock, check the locating surfaces are clean and bolts are not loose? Simple fix is a bead of silicone sealer across the joint on top

Alan 

[Dan P.]

Thanks for the tips, Alan.

I've not done a proper forging session on this hammer yet, and I think it might have enjoyed a rather quiet life for a number of years before I got my grubbies on it, and until I get a new mat under it it will be out of commission because the anvil is no longer stable on the matting. 

Speaking of the anvil, I did check the bolts, which turn in their entirety when I try to tighten/loosen them, but I've not investigated that further yet. Another member of this forum very kindly sent me photos of their paperwork for this hammer with drawings, but there is not quite enough detail to make clear what is holding the bolts on the inside.

Further to that, on the drawings there are areas of cross hatching around the "inside" half of the bolt ways on the anvil, and beneath the sow block, suggesting that they've been filled with something?? My hammer was made in 1975, I am told, and I hope that in the intervening 40 years that "something" hasn't turned to dust!

Side elevation attached without the permission of the member who kindly sent it to me, I hope he doesn't mind;

[Alan Evans]

I read the cross hatching on the drawing as indicating partial views of the cross section rather than any "filling". The centre of the bottom tool location and the anvil bolts are not in the same plane so they have shown two different levels of section or cutaways.

The anvil bolts you can see compress coil springs which are in a counterbored hole in the anvil. Are yours locked with a castellated nut and split pin? I think if the bolts are not captive you may need to wriggle a socket/extension in fro the flywheel access hatch. I thought mine were welded to a link plate but I also have a vague recollection of getting oil and grease up to my bicep from feeling inside!

Do you have the legend to say what 211 depicts? It looks like the plenum chamber I had to add on to mine. Mine has/had a chamber on top of the master cylinder which had an exhaust trumpet with a gauze filter on.

I am sure a sheet of plywood would be fine to absorb any distortions or buffer the shock on a temporary basis. Some of the illustrations I have in my catalogue show the hammer sitting on a 40mm layer of wood on top of the concrete inertia block. Hammers always used to be mounted on wood...even the monsters.

Alan

[Dan P.]

211 is a "compensation kettle". I don't know what that means. It seems that while running most/all of the air/mist/noise comes from 220/230, which are listed simply as their component parts, i.e. hex nut & tapering pin with threaded end. I have wondered if air is meant to come out there, as it is a simple affair and I would have thought that their might have been some kind of oil mist trap, but come out it does.

I haven't really looked into replacing the mat yet, but wood is a good suggestion, thank you, though of course the bolts coming out of the concrete/steel block are not really long enough to fit 40mm of wood under the hammer.

The castellated nuts are there, and have come undone enough to foul (but not shear) the split pins, so I guess the other end of the bolts must have been captive at some point for that to happen?? Anyway, further investigation needed.

I am writing off to Kuhn to see if they can send me copies of the bumf for this hammer.  

Thanks for your help, Alan.

[Dan P.]

So I put some belting under the hammer. AC Belting- thanks for the heads up, Alan, great little shop! I also got the paperwork for the hammer, which I have been slowly translating.

A question for hammer-knowers; I previously described it as a knocking sound- No, better than that, there is a sound like dry gears engaging in a hollow sort of way when the hammer is, I guess, about to engage; "cronk-cronk-cronk". Maybe a slight whistling element in the upper registers. I mentioned it before, but to elaborate; I presume it is something to do with a valve, because it happens when the tup is hovering (upping-downing) just above the lower die, by a hair, OR when the hammer is just, just engaging with a taller workpiece, i.e. a 2 1/2" piece of lumber. Just kissing it, and "cronk-cronk-cronk", quite loud. I guess it must be something with what I presume is a valve (??) taking the excess air or oomph or whatever away from the down stroke when the hammer is working on a taller workpiece.

The big question is this; This hammer works very well, makes some weird clanking noises when I'm standing around worrying about it like a noddy, but in actual use I wouldn't notice any noise except those expected- In which ways can I hurt this hammer if I am using it for forging small (25mm max.) stock, whilst keeping it lubricated? What does this weird sound mean?

Oh how I wish I'd studied engineering at college instead of religion!  

[Alan Evans]

As long as oil is dripping out of the sight glass and you have greased all of the greasing points...there are 5 including the treadle pivot on mine...you will not create any damage...

The point being is that if the sound indicates that there is already damage you may make it worse...

Have you ever heard or used a similar hammer? It may set your mind at rest. The one way valves make a bit of a rasping sound during the cycle. It is the clanking you describe that puzzles me.

Alan

[Dan P.]

I think it might be a combination of things.

"Rasping sound" sounds right, except more than sounds healthy, and I think that the clanking might be from something else? Impossible to describe and analyse in writing, really. This hammer also wobbles quite a bit, which I find a bit weird. I still haven't properly installed it yet, but it is level, and obviously it's got the big concrete box underneath. 

Lots to learn, I suppose!