Feukair Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 For a while now i've been forging blades from different steels and trying to do some differential hardening... with no real success. Blades either crack or severely warp and after a polish have no hamon. But today I quenched a knife I forged a while ago. This is my first quench of some W1 drill rod I purchased, my first experience with this steel. It's also my first quench with ap greens refractory cement. This hobby is very slow going for me cuz i have little time to put into it and since i'm so new to it i spend more time figuring out how i'm going to do each step rather than doing it, and alot of time researching... Anyways I hand forged this from 3/4 W1 drill rod. Hand filed it and clay coated it with ap green's and wire wrapped it. For the quench I heated it just past non-magnetic, tried to hold it at that temp for a couple minutes, and quenched it in briney water that was about 130 degrees. Tempered in oven at 350 for 1.5 hrs and let it cool in the oven. This was a very exciting quench, i went in the water sharp edge down for 3 seconds, out for 1 second, then in for 3, then out for 1 and in until cool. The first time i took it out of the water it was severley bent downwards towards the tip after which it straightened back out. It's so amazing that it does that! But it did not straighten back upwards all the way sad to say, it still has a slight downwards bend. There is almost no side to side warping, a very slight bow in one direction, almost un-noticeable. I heard and felt no cracks happening this time! I've cleaned up the blade some and can see no cracks. So I am going to polish this some, maybe tomorrow, and see if there is a hamon. I hope so... Whether there is or not i will probably re-anneal this piece and put some upward bend in it to compensate for what my combination of steel, clay, heat, water temp, etc does to the curve of the blade and try quenching again. Here's some pics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 Looks good dude! Looks like you got a nice hamon showing there, polish her up and take a look! With the shorter blades, the curvature from the quench tends to be a little less, if at all sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Well I've made my first hamon! I took a section of the blade through the following water stones: 250grit, 500, 800, 1200, a natural binsui stone, then small squares of 2000grit wet sandpaper with my thumb. I'm still going to re-anneal this piece and put more upwards curve in it then quench again. Also, i'll put a more interesting clay pattern on so i don't have such a plain straight hamon. I'm also going to try to use a nugui mixture to darken the area above the hamon in the future. For this one I did a warm vinegar etch then hit it again with the 2000 paper, just to see what it would do, i never etched anything before. The etch really popped the hamon line out but also raised some other areas of the grain leaving some messy looking areas i don't like. I wasnt planning on etching my knives anyway, like i said, just experimenting. Here's some pics of the process. 250 grit stone 500 grit stone 800 grit stone 1200 grit stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 More pics... natural binsui stone Sorry, ^ thats a poor pic... 2000 grit wet sandpaper after vinegar etch and 2000 grit wet paper again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pault17 Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 very awesome. congratulations. I would get more of that rod/material and work with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Thx. I've got enough of this W1 drill rod to make almost 10 more blades this size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbillysmith Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Very nice. But it seems to me that you jumped the grains of stones a little too much. I would have done it more gradually. But that's just me. I don't even know if it even makes a difference in steel (cause I've only done one "mirror" finish so far), but I used to do ALOT of woodworking, and I know it does there. But please keep experimenting and PUH-LEEZE, more pics. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 10, 2007 Author Share Posted December 10, 2007 Thanks for the info. I do have a 1000 grit stone that i skipped this time. I"m still trying to figure out which ones to use. I also have other higher grit stones, like 3000 and up that i could have used instead of the paper but I like the paper because it conforms to the shape of he blade and helps take out streaks left by the stones. I think you are right though, i need more grits and i need to go higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 29, 2007 Author Share Posted December 29, 2007 Well, I annealed this blade and forged a bit more of an upwards curve in it this time. Re-filed and clay coated and hardened and i'm much happier with the results. Here are some pictures of this 2nd attempt. I've only polished it with the first stone, 250 grit, but then did a quick hot vinegar etch to get a good look at the hamon. I like the way this one turned out. I'll post more pics of polishing on the higher grit stones when i get to them. I've also got a video of the quenching of this blade that i have to capture and edit and post so that's coming too. The hamon did go a little higher in the middle of the blade than i wanted, not sure if i put the clay on higher or thinner there or if the water got under the clay during the quench. It's still a keeper though... 1 - The forged blade filed to shape. 2 - Clay coating. Clay was applied, then a wire wrap, then a thinner layer of clay to cover the wire. 3 - After the quench. 4 - first polish with 250grit stone (closeup) hamon slightly showing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 29, 2007 Author Share Posted December 29, 2007 More pics... 5 - after a 3-4 minute hot vinegar etch to show the hamon better. 5 - after a 3-4 minute hot vinegar etch to show the hamon better (closeup). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 29, 2007 Author Share Posted December 29, 2007 Thanks man. Here's the video of the quenching. Check out how the blade goes in the water with an upwards bend but when it comes out it has a downwards bend until it cools and bends upwards again.Quenching video Lt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 Didnt the guy who helped you with yours use an upright quench tank and submerge the blade tip first up to the hilt? I think i remember you posting a pic showing the upright quench tanks... Lt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 Cool, i was wondering about that, i thought you had to go in the quench horizontally for the best effect with this kind of sword/knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainsFire Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 wow, that looks great! if you dont mind me asking, where did you purchase your stones? great work on the polish too, cant wait to see it finished again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 Some of the stones I got from woodcraft Fast Cutting Japanese Water Stones And some from the japan woodworker The Japan Woodworker Catalog (click on the links under bench stones on the left) Right now I'm mostly using synthetic stones, i have a couple natural ones but not the very expensive kind. Woodcraft has enough to get you going, you can pick up combo stones of varying grits. Like if you pick up the 250/1000, a 800/4000, and 1000/6000 then you have 6 grits to work through. Then over at japan woodworker I picked up some other stones to fill the gaps in those grits like a 500grit and a 1500grit. The softer grits will wear away fast (250 extremely fast if your using it to roughly shape a newly quenched blade) and the 800 wears pretty quickly as does the 1000. The 4000 and 6000 wear slowly. So when the softer sides of the combo stones have worn away then i will go pick up the softer grit stones in single form which are about 1 - 1-1/4" thick and should last longer and I'll have the hinger grit stones left over. Water stones are expensive though. I havent really found anywhere that I would consider a "great deal" usually prices are all very similar no matter where you go. You might find one a few dollars cheaper but then the shipping will be more expensive. Once in a while you can find them on ebay but they usually go for about the same price as new, maybe like 15% cheaper but then ebay shippers usually over charge on shipping so it's a wash. Lt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.V.Reeve Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Feukair... great looking blade! To back up a little is the clay/wire wrap creating the hamon lines? What type of wire is used? Is the clay thicker or thinner where you want to accent the lines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted December 31, 2007 Author Share Posted December 31, 2007 Thanks John! This is getting to be alot of fun now things are working out... It is the clay pattern that creates the line. Above the line the clay is about 1/8" thick. Below the line it is only a very think coat just to cover the metal and prevent alot of oxydation while heating it in the forge. After i get that much clay on and the clay is mostly dry then i wrap it with wire and put another thin coat of clay to cover up the wire. The wire is to simply hold the clay on while you heat and quench the blade, otherwize it may ( and probably will ) be blasted of the surface of the steel in several places ruining the hamon line and/or causing the blade to warp away from those areas. I've basically been following the processes described at this site but i wait until the first layer of clay is dry before wrapping with wire, instead of wrapping while the clay is all wet. I also did not put any ashi lines on this blade with clay. I have another one that i've quenched that i did try to do that to, i'll see how that turned out when i get to polishing it. Here's a good description of the process: Claying blades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.V.Reeve Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 "Ahhhh... I see the light now, Master." said grasshoppah Thanks for the explainations. Really cool how the blades can come out with this treatment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainsFire Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 what color would 900' be? black? that is interesting.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted January 1, 2008 Author Share Posted January 1, 2008 I heat to just past non-magnetic then i quench in brine water that is at about 130-140 degrees (cuz that's the hottest the water will come from my the tap at my dads place). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainsFire Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 any updates mate? would love to see em.. just bought some stones ;( hurt a little.. painfull blow to a jobless teen.. 100dollas for two square rocks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I have been working on it a little. I'll get more pics up soon. What stones did you get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 It is acceptable to roughly double the grit (reduce the size by half) at each polishing stage. Rotate 90 degrees at each change of grit. The bending is due to several competing processes in the quench. The material is trying to contract due to the temperature being lowered. The edge is expanding due to the transformation to martensite (austenite to martensite expands 1-4%). The clayed area is transforming to pearlite which expands less than 1%. Now add in differences in thickness and section size, any residual stresses and non-uniform heating and cooling and you have a crapshoot on which way it will bend. Good effort, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainsFire Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I have been working on it a little. I'll get more pics up soon. What stones did you get? umm, I bought ones that would double as really fine sharpening stones.. (so my father would understand..lol) so I got one really course, 150 for shaping.. an 800-4000, and a 1000-8000, and the surfacing stone for keeping them to shape.. 8000 is probably overkill, but should be fun.. I'm going to fill the gap's with sandpaper so I dont have to spend more money.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feukair Posted January 6, 2008 Author Share Posted January 6, 2008 Which 150 grit stone did you get? I've been thinking of getting one that rough but i don't have one yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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