Metal anvil stand help

[quint]

Ok so I have been researching making a 3 legged metal stand for one of my anvils. My first question is about transference of weight as in making the stand heavier yet still quiet and have the weight actually be useful. 

 

The few things I have researched

 

Fill the posts with sand/oil to help deaden the noise. Proper angle for the legs and stand height are all things I have accounted for. 

 

So I have a 2"x12"x12" piece of steel that I wanted to incorporate. However it has a 1/4" bow to it so in order to lay the anvil directly on top of that I need to grind it down some how. I was thinking of making this the bottom of a foot tall sand box basically so from the ground up it would be post legs, the steel plate, 4 walls filled with sand, either wood or steel or just braces and the anvil on top. 

 

I am wondering does having sand, or a thick piece of wood negate the extra weight of the other portions of the stand. I have scene everything from sand boxes to straight planks of steel to large chuncks of wood on top of the steel stand.

 

Is just using a layer of silicone on top of straight steel with the legs filled going to give the best mating of the stand to anvil and also keep the noise down? 

 

I understand this can be a subject with about a million different opinions. I am just finding it hard to figure this out after searching a ton of post most of them here I may add. 

 

Thanks for any help with this, just trying to work out the last details before I start cutting and welding. 

[DSW]

Why grind the steel plate down? Flip it over so instead of having a 1/4" crown and the anvil rocks, turn it so there is a 1/4" hollow and the anvil sits flat instead. If need be you can shim with some plate and weld to make up the hollow.

[quint]

Thanks DSW, I guess it makes sense that it wouldnt matter of the force was diverted to the four corners of the feet of the anvil.

[clinton]

Crown down and put a layer of silicone caulking

[Mike Romo]

I put some tool box drawer lining on my stand base and then a layer of silicone. I have not added sand and oil just yet, but it is pretty quiet.

I also use the pritchel hole sound dampener from a scrap of stock. Works nicely.

[VaughnT]

If you go with a tripod design, remember that it doesn't do any measurable good to have the feet of the stand extend past the center of the horn or the hardy hole.  These are the two farthest-out points where you might be hammering with any real force that might cause a tipping issue.  The angle of the legs from the base is determined by the size of the top platform and it's height from the ground.  While folks will throw out hard numbers, the only way to define this angle is to draw it out and do the math.

 

Solid stock can be welded up from smaller stock if you want to go with a solid leg instead of a sand-filled tube.  I used two pieces of 1"x1" welded together to make a 2"x1" plate that became the legs. 

 

I don't know if building a sand box on top of the stand will be of any benefit.  I don't think it would hurt anything, but it would add time and complexity to the build.  How big of a box would you want?  2" deep?  4"?  Is there a point of diminishing returns?  I honestly don't know the answer to that.

 

A simple bed of silicone caulk under the anvil will silence it tremendously - at least 90% if my experience with a Wilkinson anvil is any indication.  I've never used a sand box stand, but I can't imagine it could be quieter than a bed of caulk.  The caulk also precludes moisture from getting under there and rusting your stand.

[quint]

Thanks Vaughn for the insight. I think I would maybe try for solid legs but welding 1in stock is beyond my welders ability. 

 

I think I have a solid plan now. Will post some pics when I get done. Thanks again everyone for the help. 

[VaughnT]

Quint, you don't need to weld a lot.  I just did a handful of 1" beads to tie the two pieces together.  Penetration doesn't have to be deep;  I put a bead on both sides of the seam and feel really good that even shallow penetration is deep enough to keep things together.  The anvil's been mounted for awhile now, and no signs of anything breaking. 

[quint]

Well got it mostly done. Made a few errors. I angled the front leg just a tad forward. The other two I messed up and instead of angling them out at a diagonal from the first they ended up being angled out directly at a 90. Not the end of the world but will mean I need to now weld in a couple of little wedge supports for those two.

 

Gotta grind all the corners so I dont tear my leg open, finish filling with sand, then trace out the anvil and weld in the side brackets, then grab some pics.  

[VaughnT]

Where's the pictures?  Did you decide to do a sandbox on top?  What are you using for the foot pads?

[quint]

Ok here it is, not pretty and like I said still needs some work. The box is welded around so it is filled with sand below the top plate and up along the sides of it. The tubes on the bottom are also filled. 

 

Still gonna grind the corners down and fix any welds that really need it. Adjust the legs and add the extra supports. Then the top mounting stuff. 

 

No comments on the welds lol. I know most of them arent that great. They are good enough where it counts. Working with a 115v mig so not gonna be very special lol. 

 

Forgot to add, once the sand is tamped down, I will weld in bars around the top edges to join the side metal with the top plate. Still dont know what that thing is, I think it came out of some rail car or something. I looked up the number and it shows a certain type of rail car. Assuming its a part off of one. 

[VaughnT]

Very neat design.  You got the best of both worlds, with the sandbox being easy to lighten for moving and the three-point stance for stability.  I don't think she'll be very tippy once the ballast is added!

 

Did I read that right, that you are going to weld the sides to the plate that the anvil's on?

[quint]

Yeah I was planning on it, I didnt really plan on lightening for moving thing. I guess I could leave them open so I could just tip it over to pour the sand out, just figured that it would be more structurally sound having those guys welded up. I dont think she is coming apart any time soon but I tend to over do things when I can. 

 

Thanks. 

 

Edit to add I should probably drill a hole in the side and tap and add a plug. That would make sense and be able to drain/fill it easier. I may do that later.

[VaughnT]

From what I've read, it seems one of the joys of having a sandbox stand is that you can raise and lower the anvil for different functions (though I don't know how commonly that's done).  It would be a sure sight easier to move if that ever came to pass, too.

 

Have to admit that I'm kinda jealous of all that real estate you have on the sides of the box - that gives you tons of options for mounting tool-holders.  My anvil's on a 1" thick plate and I never thought I'd want to put tool-holders on it.... but now I'm thinking otherwise.  I don't have nearly the space that you have, but keeping a few things handy sure would be handy.

[quint]

Well finally finished except for the tool holders. Gonna add those as I go along I think. 

 

Things to do differently would be

 

splay the legs out just a tad more, its fine now but before adding the extra feet it was a little wobbly with the twisting motion. Its still not perfect gotta play with leveling it out some but is still great for up and down stuff. 

 

Do as others have done and make it so the base plate I mounted on the top would be free floating in the sand box instead of welded in like I did. Like Vaughn was saying it allows for relatively easy adjustment. 

 

Pros 

 

This thing makes the anvil feel more solid then anything Ive tapped on so far. I have not forged on it yet but rebound is amazing and the feel of solidness is a huge improvement. The pictures are with my 200lb sodofors and with the base weighing I estimate about 200- 220 lbs it feels more like a solid 400lbs vise just the 200lbs of the anvil (if that makes sense). Cant wait to hit metal on it. 

 

Quiet. Even without the chains, just bedded in silicone and the little tabs knocked over a touch to preclude it coming off although to be honest theres no vibration or bouncing one bit. It is a nice solid little thwack. Hopefully tomorrow I can forge a bit and see how well it really does under some good hammer swings. 

 

Pain in the butt to build, could have gone with a slightly better design but worked with what I have so. Went thru alot of wire but got more familier with my little welder. 

 

[quint]

Well got a couple hours of forging in today. I must say I am so very impressed with how everything performs now. I didnt realize how a well mounted anvil that has no movement at all really allows the anvils rebound to do its job. The metal I was forging moved so much easier under the hammer. The sound also was also pretty much nill. It was nice because the tap of the hammer you could hear but it instantly dissipated without the slight hang of a ring. Even with a well sound isolated anvil like my HB it still had that very short sound after the hammer hits.

 

Now if I can find another big piece of steel I would like to make another one for my other anvil with a few minor changes. Highly recommended if you guys can source the supply's.   

[VaughnT]

If you could, take the chain off from the waist of the anvil and compare the ring to how it is now.  I've seen a lot of folks put chain around the waist to deaden the ring, but never on top a sandbox and silicone.  Does the ring increase noticeably without the chain?   

[quint]

Ok made a quick video. Ya know it is very hard to notice the difference. I think I had the hammer raised a little more for without. Only noticeable difference was on the heel. In the good spot there wasnt really any noticeable differance I could tell, ofcourse my hearing is not all that great after years of working in a steam plant. 

 

Cant figure out how to imbed the video here but here is the link. 

[VaughnT]

Very hard to hear a difference, like you said.  I did a short magnet v. chain video some time back and couldn't see any different in the chain/no-chain anvil, but I didn't use anywhere near as much chain as you did.

 

http://s70.photobucket.com/user/VaughnT/media/Smithing/MVI_0344.mp4.html?sort=6&o=17

[quint]

Yeah those chains are pretty long, when I picked up my PW from a guy who was selling off most of his father in laws old stuff out in the shed he had most of it gone already, few things here and there. Any how I ended up getting two of those chains that were in a corner under some stuff, a full box of fresh nails (big foot square size box) and a couple ball peen hammers for like $20. He was trying to just get rid of stuff so. 

 

With my wood stumps I notice the most difference with the silicone underfoot. Second with alot of chain. With this metal/sand and a silicone bed (pretty thin) it is just dead solid feeling. I think the only thing I could do is bolt it to the concrete floor but I need to be able to move it occasionally so thats probably not gonna happen. 

 

I remember that video of yours when I first started, had me putting all kinds of stuff on my anvils. 

[dan richman]

I know it's a bit late to chime in, but if you have the funds available.; Have a machine shop level the base of the anvil, drill/tap opposite corners of the anvil and drill both the  stand and anvil for 1/2 inch bolts  with a corse thread. When attaching the anvil to the stand, put down a solid bed of Silkaflex on the table and oil the anvil base so it won't stick when bolted down. It will take the ring out of he anvil and the anvil will be removable. You don't need more than 1" for the base until you go over 150 Lbs. Larger anvils will need a thicker base, but should not exceed 1 1/4".

[quint]

Thanks Dan thats some good ideas. Next time I change anything out Ill try and remember that. Would really secure it to the stand thats for sure.