forge welding files?

[thunderforge777]

im getting old files for cheap off ebay to make blades with. the big 12 inch ones work well but smaller ones not so much. so if i have a bunch of small files left over not big enough, i was thinking i can forge weld them together then hammer out a piece big enough to make a blade. would this work? 

im about to buy a lot of 30 files from this guy and some are big enough and some are too small. id hate to have no use for the small files. i can make blades but ive never forge welded anything.

[thunderforge777]

so are you saying hammer them together with some mild steel

[thunderforge777]

oh ok so it would be a file sandwiched between 2 pieces of mild steel then forge welded together?

would be pretty interesting to see this work. ive watched the making of katanas and they do soft core hard edge. this seems similar.

[jmccustomknives]

I've used files and saw plate (L-6) to make pattern welded blades.  Grind most of the teeth off and be sure to use a wire brush to clean it up before building the billet. 

[CKillgore]

I'm working on a knife similar right now. I have used mild steel on the the outsides and a piece of 1095 as the core. You can see the initial billet in the picture below. I ground each piece clean and arc welded it together just to hold it in place while I welded it. In the next picture you can see it after I did the initial weld on it. The last picture is of the knife after I forged it to shape and started the rough grind. I dipped it in some ferric chloride so you can see the darker steel at the edge is the 1095 in the middle. I did some more grinding at the tip to make sure I got to the 1095 after seeing it etched. This is only my 3rd knife so I am no expert in bladesmithing. I have only been blacksmithing for a year or so when I have had some spare time. 

 

Just thought I'd share

 

 

[S.Hollowood]

Why use files for knife blades? What is a dull file for a wood worker, or other softer material is often perfect for hot files in the shop. 

[Dave Budd]

If you have  alot of files then you soon find that you have enough for dirty or hot work, besides a small file would not be much use or fun to use near a hot piece of metal ;)

 

laminating the files into a san mai blade is a nice simple way to use them (espeically if they are too small to turn into the blade that you want to make). You could then take the billet up a notch and add more layers of each and you have patter welded or damascus steel (would be better to use something like saw blades rather than mild thoguh). There are other things to use small file for too, such as flint strikers, small carving tools, awls, etc

[Dave Budd]

i agree about the terminology.

 

Although the laminating of edges in this method goes back to the iron age in most parts of the world, people in the modern knife scene are most familiar with the marketing of such techniques as a magical and mystical Japanese innovation. I annoys me no end, but such is the way of language :(    Since the advent of cheap steel, most smiths around the world have largely abandoned this technique (certainly industry has) and the only folk who are seen to have continued are teh Japanese and the Scandinavians

 

I get the same feeling when I have a pattern welded blade on a table at a show and folk come up and say "that's that Japanese thing", despite the fact that the piece they have picked up may be a replica of something made in the UK in the 2nd century BC!

[GNJC]

There's more than one size and type of knife! What about small skinning knives, kitchen knives, spoon carving knives (twca cam - in Welsh), or chisels and gouges? Smaller files could be used for any of these.

[CKillgore]

CKillgore: That's looking like it's gonna be a nice looking knife!

But I'm not overly enthusiastic about establishing this method as purely San Mai, the vikings (and probably others) employed this sandwiching method too, although the knowledge could have come from the east via Miklagard (Istanbul).

 

Thanks! I went ahead and removed that comment just to keep from confusing anyone. When I was researching how to do it, this is the method that most people labeled as "san mai". It seems to have just stuck. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide what they want to call it.

[Richard Furrer]

i agree about the terminology.

 

Although the laminating of edges in this method goes back to the iron age in most parts of the world, people in the modern knife scene are most familiar with the marketing of such techniques as a magical and mystical Japanese innovation. I annoys me no end, but such is the way of language :(    Since the advent of cheap steel, most smiths around the world have largely abandoned this technique (certainly industry has) and the only folk who are seen to have continued are teh Japanese and the Scandinavians

 

I get the same feeling when I have a pattern welded blade on a table at a show and folk come up and say "that's that Japanese thing", despite the fact that the piece they have picked up may be a replica of something made in the UK in the 2nd century BC!

Then USE the public image and lead them to what you do.

Have a Japanese style blade you made and then tell them that "the British Museum and local museums are full of examples made right here in what became the UK and Europe"....."and those look like these pieces I make over here." Point out the similarities and differences and the public walks away smarter...and maybe with some of your work.

It also helps to have documentation such as that BAR series publication by Brian Gilmore or the work of any of a number of British archeo-metallurgists.

 

Let your work take advantage of the public image and imagination....the marketing has already been done for you.

 

 

Spang,

You can simply weld the files onto itself as well..there will be a pattern. Doing multi-part welds is a way of placing the edge material where it does the work and non-edge material where it provides body. Some of the ways of stacking the billets can be very complicated...such as the wolf-tooth style, but for now I suggest you simply get comfortable with forge-welding and then build from there.

 

Ric

[MOblacksmith0530]

Yup as said by so many others bundle them up with or without a filler and weld them into "pattern welded" steel for a blank. It can be random or whatever you wish.

[Dave Budd]

Ric, don't worry I do try to educate without being rude or condescending :D    I normally have some replica pieces with me since I normally demonstrate at shows with an itinerant Iron Age set up.

[Maillemaker]

Generally, welding two different steels together is more difficult than welding two chemically similar steels.  Mild steel has a higher welding temperature than high carbon.  This means that you could overheat or even burn your carbon steel attempting to reach mild steel's welding temperature.  Since the same alloy has the same welding temp, that's one less variable to consider.

 

(Side note: has anyone ever done testing to determine what "welding temperature" is for various blends of steel?)

Some alloys have chemicals that make them more difficult to forge weld:  leaf springs, generally 5160, are notorious for this.

[thunderforge777]

would this work using some of that cheap mild steel from home depot? that stuff is pretty soft.

[Maillemaker]

Most likely; but check local scrap yards or salvage depots for mild.  Pay by the pound, not retail!

[CKillgore]

Yes I would agree with Maillemaker. The steel from home depot would work fine as the outside layers of a knife but it is going to be considerably more expensive than purchasing it from a scrap yard or even new steel from a local steel/welding supply place. It's most likely going to be exactly the same steel whether you get it from home depot or a welding supply store, probably A36 or similar.