Fatboy Rider Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I made a stacked cross last night for my daughter. I've wanted to try this since Jake posted his this fall. It went well until I tried to pean the brass rivet. the edges kept fracturing. The rivet was done cold, that may be the problem. Any thoughts would be appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 You should have annealed the brass rivet before riveting. Heat to a red color and quench in water to anneal. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Rider Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 thank you! I think I knew that from somewhere but forgot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 You should have annealed the brass rivet before riveting. Heat to a red color and quench in water to anneal. Doc I have a question about that. I know quenching will not harden brass, but is there any reason to quench it at all? Could you just heat the brass and head it hot, I know something that small would cool vary fast anyway. I guess the real question is that it is heating the brass that make it soft and if it is quenched or not it will stay in a soft state right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. It cannot be worked hot. If it is it cracks and brakes into granular pieces. There are today many alloys that resemble brass in color and are in appropriately called brasses but are not. A common example would be the bronze cap railing that many of us use which is often called brass after it is installed. As far as quenching is concerned I believe, but I'm not sure that the faster the brass or copper is cooled the more assured you are of reaching it's complete softness.I can only say that this is only anecdotal from my experience and may not be true at all. Needless to say when working, it's quicker to quench that to wait for it to cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naz Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Very nice job on the cross, I'm a big fan of mixed metals. Yours turned out great ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Naval Brass and forging brass are both copper and zinc, Navel has a tiny (<1%) amount of tin and forging brass has a couple percent of lead. Both forge easily. Never seen a brass that wouldn't forge. Sure gotta watch the heat though. When annealing, fast cooling is just for convenience, makes no difference in the resulting hardness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Any tips on recognizing brass from bronze. I have forged some copper alloys. Had some forge nicely and some crumble. Any good books or websites that give a nice overview of forging brass/bronze? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Any tips on recognizing brass from bronze. I have forged some copper alloys. Had some forge nicely and some crumble. Any good books or websites that give a nice overview of forging brass/bronze?They're all forgeable in my experience, but many can't even stand a visible red. No worse than forging aluminum. Most of the bronzes are much more forgiving. Silicone bronze is one of the easiest and most popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Another tip for rivets is to chamfer those edges by sanding or even filing after cutting your round stock. Sharp edges promote splitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Grant, Are you sure? I know for a fact you can't forge yellow brass hot, worked alot of it years ago in Rhode Island when I was working for the restoration. Also just googled forgable navel brass alloys and all the alloys that came up were bronzes. Not trying to be a pain but just wondering where the differences in brasses and bronzes are. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Copper Alloy No. C46400Naval Brass , CDA 464ASTM B21 , ASTM B171Chemical Composition % by weight Cu59 - 62 Fe Max 0.1 Pb Max 0.2 Sn 0.5 - 1 Zn 39.25 Depends on what you call brass and what you call bronze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Forging brass alloy C377: Copper 58 - 61 Iron 0.3 max Lead 1.5 - 2.5 Remainder Each Zn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 You're right, hard to discuss without defining brass and bronze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I once messed around tryin to forge a float rod from a toilet. It crumbled. I have indeed forged (nicely) a wear plate from an old log splitter. The piece was a nice yellow looking non-ferrous chunk about 3/4 x 1. On the other hand, cold use non ferrous (like sheet brass or foil) is handy to have around. I keep a small bit of each. I snugged up a shaft on a post drill the other day with some floral foil. YES ! Very nice job on the cross my friend. I might suggest a nicely polished hammer face on a little bitty hammer to pien this brass rivet. If you have the stock and time, sucker rod ends make nice bottom tools. forge the threads to fit the hardy hole. Cut above the upset and leave an inch or so. Let this cool and check the fit in the hole. You will need round nosed punch(es) for the following: If you have issues needing bottom tools for factory rivet heads of different sizes, just forge as described above and cut to length. then as you need the bottom tools, heat the cut part and drive a round nosed punch into it to get different sized dimples for different needs. This of course will set around and rust in my shop and be hard on polished brass (which I don't have much need for personally). you can make top tools from the same stock in the same fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy Rider Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Thank you all for shairing your thoughts and tips. This is why I love this site. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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