bmazingo Posted December 20, 2010 Author Share Posted December 20, 2010 Thank for the info. I am trying to find some u-bolts around my shop to mount my burners. I made the opening in the body large enough to allow me to pack wool around them, but also allow me to adjust the angle of the tips either up or down. I am hoping to fire it up tonight with just the shell. Want to see it on fire plus I am going to get some BBQ grille paint and heating the shell will help set the paint. Just a few pictures, nothing is fastened yet. I made the mso I could take it off the cart and set it on a table or bench while I work on the lining. The mount also slides front to back on the cart. I still have to put my work surfaces on the cart. I also told you all the wrong measurement for the length. Main body is only 14" long, the two caps are about 2" (not counting what overlaps the body). So my total chamber length will be more like 18" instead of 20". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted December 22, 2010 Author Share Posted December 22, 2010 Hey guys, I didn't get to fire it up today. Will try again tomorrow. I did manage to find enough spare/scrap parts and time at work to make my first venturi burner. I have a small helium tank in m shop and I thought I might make a mini-forge if I have enough material left over from the big one. I know it is probably not exactly right but it seems to be very efficient. I used a #1 victor heating tip for my jet. I probably should have went smaller, but it is the same size as a .045 mig tip (or very close). The rest is pipe and old iron fitting that I smoothed on the inside. The tip is adjustable with set screws. I made the tip out of a larger piece ofr pipe that I belled with a torch. Pictures were at 5 psi. It works okay for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 22, 2010 Share Posted December 22, 2010 That venturi burner should work fine. You can tune the mixture some by moving the tip in and out of the venturi to change how much air is induced. There are some neat bottom fired vertical forge designs that are flexible. You can take the top off and do flat sheets if you need that way. Get one forge up and running, then start the next or you won't get either done. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted December 22, 2010 Author Share Posted December 22, 2010 That venturi burner should work fine. You can tune the mixture some by moving the tip in and out of the venturi to change how much air is induced. There are some neat bottom fired vertical forge designs that are flexible. You can take the top off and do flat sheets if you need that way. Get one forge up and running, then start the next or you won't get either done. Phil I had some free time at work yesterday, making the small burner helped the day go by a little faster. I am on my way out the door to go play with the blown forge now. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymm Hoffman Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Thank for the info. I am trying to find some u-bolts around my shop to mount my burners. I made the opening in the body large enough to allow me to pack wool around them, but also allow me to adjust the angle of the tips either up or down. I am hoping to fire it up tonight with just the shell. Want to see it on fire plus I am going to get some BBQ grille paint and heating the shell will help set the paint. Just a few pictures, nothing is fastened yet. I made the mso I could take it off the cart and set it on a table or bench while I work on the lining. The mount also slides front to back on the cart. I still have to put my work surfaces on the cart. I also told you all the wrong measurement for the length. Main body is only 14" long, the two caps are about 2" (not counting what overlaps the body). So my total chamber length will be more like 18" instead of 20". Go back and look at the photos I posted as well as sent to you. Point the burner tips down, slightly. The angle should cause the flames to glance off the bottom, which should be a hard refractory over 2 inches of blanket. If you point the flame directly at the blanket, it will actually wear it out. The added refractory will make a difference. I would not recommend the 6 pound, go with 8. Better for the long term costs. But don't make the inside too small, regardless of burner numbers. My guess is this system will support a wider forge than you built. Cut the shell in 1/2 to make it easier to line and reline, etc as in my photos. If you have a way to secure the refractory to the top, it gives you the option to raise the lid higher for certain jobs. Don't get too excited and in too big of a rush, follow the info I sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted December 23, 2010 Author Share Posted December 23, 2010 Ordered my blanket today, got the 1" 8lb density. Man that stuff is high, and the shipping is not to great either. I did not get any rigidizer but I got some air dry mortar that is for 3200F I think it will work for the coating. I also got my u-bolts today so tomorow I will make my mounts for the burners. I will be sure to take my time. So far it looks really good. I told my brother I was going to call the gas company and see about getting a residential tank later. I have a feeling I am gonna be using a lot of gas, this stuff is really got me excited. I was wondering if I pointed the burners up instead of down, would it be as efficient? I can do either way. I really dont want to cut my shell in two. The type if pipe I used tends to spring outwards really bad when it it split. I know it will be harder to work on and I will be limited to what size work I can do but I can always split it later if need be. I am planning on 2-3" of blanket and 1/4" of mortar over a thin skim coat. I am sure I will have more questions soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymm Hoffman Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 Ordered my blanket today, got the 1" 8lb density. Man that stuff is high, and the shipping is not to great either. I did not get any rigidizer but I got some air dry mortar that is for 3200F I think it will work for the coating. I also got my u-bolts today so tomorow I will make my mounts for the burners. I will be sure to take my time. So far it looks really good. I told my brother I was going to call the gas company and see about getting a residential tank later. I have a feeling I am gonna be using a lot of gas, this stuff is really got me excited. I was wondering if I pointed the burners up instead of down, would it be as efficient? I can do either way. I really dont want to cut my shell in two. The type if pipe I used tends to spring outwards really bad when it it split. I know it will be harder to work on and I will be limited to what size work I can do but I can always split it later if need be. I am planning on 2-3" of blanket and 1/4" of mortar over a thin skim coat. I am sure I will have more questions soon. So what did you pay for the blanket and where did you get it? 1/4" mortar will be a waste of mortar, even if you have a lot of it. The problem with mortar is when it does break apart, it pulls blanket with it. If you are going to use mortar, just use a thin coat. Go back and look at the photos I posted as well as sent to you. Point the burner tips down, slightly. The angle should cause the flames to glance off the bottom, which should be a hard refractory over 2 inches of blanket. If you point the flame directly at the blanket, it will actually wear it out. But don't make the inside too small, regardless of burner numbers. Don't get too excited and in too big of a rush, follow the info I sent. If you are in a big hurry, build one following the info I sent you. Don't try to re-engineer things until you get one up and running, and use it for a while. There is lots of info out there, follow one to get your first system together. Then you can try variations with the extra materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted December 28, 2010 Author Share Posted December 28, 2010 So what did you pay for the blanket and where did you get it? 1/4" mortar will be a waste of mortar, even if you have a lot of it. The problem with mortar is when it does break apart, it pulls blanket with it. If you are going to use mortar, just use a thin coat. Go back and look at the photos I posted as well as sent to you. Point the burner tips down, slightly. The angle should cause the flames to glance off the bottom, which should be a hard refractory over 2 inches of blanket. If you point the flame directly at the blanket, it will actually wear it out. But don't make the inside too small, regardless of burner numbers. Don't get too excited and in too big of a rush, follow the info I sent. If you are in a big hurry, build one following the info I sent you. Don't try to re-engineer things until you get one up and running, and use it for a while. There is lots of info out there, follow one to get your first system together. Then you can try variations with the extra materials. I bought my blanket from The Ebay store mentioned in an earlier reply. I think it is called the hightemp store. It seemed to be priced about where every body else's is. I was hoping to hear from Mr.Goedecker, but I had to get something going. I tried the burners out in the shell today, It does seem to burn more out of the second burner, but not much. I will know more when I get the insulation in. I think I am going with the down angle like you suggested, it seems to swirl nicely. The flame travels almost completely around the shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted December 29, 2010 Author Share Posted December 29, 2010 Hey guys, I am still waiting for my materials to complete the big forge. I did however throw together s small tank forge. I got some refractory mix from work (free). It is called ONE SHOT non asbestos ...... That is all I could make out on the bag since it is in such bad shape. They used to use it for the boiler at work. I binged/googled it and I think it is a gunnable refractory mix. Anyway, I mixed it with water like my co-workers said they did, and it turns into a semi putty like stuff. So I smeared it on the inside of my helium tank. Looked pretty good but the roof sagged a little when I warmed it. I had to warm it in my oven since the outside temps are sub freezing right now. Started with a blow dryer then into the ovenat 170 for 5hrs and then up to 220 for a short time. Seemed to set up firm but the roof pulled away from the tank. I think I can just slide the burner down further through the collar. I am going to let it set the rest of today and try firing it at low heat this evening. I think it will work for now. This is going to be fun. I really am excited about the big forge though, I will be glad to see that box when it gets here. I also got my first book about blacksmithing, a Christmas gift from my brother. The Art of Blacksmithing, by Alex W. Bealer. Mr. Hoffman, I think I paid about $100 for the blanket, the shipping is what killed me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hello my friends, I have managed to get some work done on my forge. I recieved my wool and mortar monday but weather has not premitted me to work on it. I put the wool in yesterday, and I would like some advice on the burner area, where it is protruding into the chamber. Do I need to put one more layer of wool? Also I am thinkin of just coating the bottom of the chamber with the mortar. I have been told that it has a tendancy to crack and flake. So I thought that just coating the bottom would work or does all the fibers need to be coated to prevent them from becoming air born? Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Looks good. You have plenty of insulation. Kaowool can take the temperature but it can't tolerate direct exposure to the combustion gas. The health hazard from kaowool fibers is greatly exaggerated. The main reason to coat the wool is to protect it. If you don't it will deteriorate rapidly. I'm not crazy about mortar since it tends to flake but others use it and are satisfied. I would apply several coats with a short firing inbetween to dry it out and build up to about 1/4" thickness. You will probably have to patch it from time to time. If you can afford to buy a pint of ITC100 , its well worth it. That should go ontop of the mortar. I am not that familiar with Jymm's design even though he sent me the plans. It looks like the nozzles are too far in and will burn up. Usually they reach only about half way into the hole in the lining. With the ends open, the forge wont do much but I recall that you made endcaps for it. I assume the caps are lined with kaowool? Almost there! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jymm Hoffman Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hello my friends, I have managed to get some work done on my forge. I recieved my wool and mortar monday but weather has not premitted me to work on it. I put the wool in yesterday, and I would like some advice on the burner area, where it is protruding into the chamber. Do I need to put one more layer of wool? Also I am thinkin of just coating the bottom of the chamber with the mortar. I have been told that it has a tendancy to crack and flake. So I thought that just coating the bottom would work or does all the fibers need to be coated to prevent them from becoming air born? Thanks guys. Maybe it was hard to see in the photo I posted of a forge under construction. I put in the ram, over the blanket, bringing it up to about 1 inch below the burners. If you put some hard refractory in the bottom, you won't need as much angle on the burners. If you do not put any hard refractory into the bottom, it will get hot very fast, but it will cool off when you put metal into it, the larger the more heat will be sucked out. Even if you don't get the ram I recommend, old fire bricks will help. These systems work best when you use both hard refractory and the blanket. The hard will get hot and radiate heat back, the blanket reflects it back into the hard and the work.... You don't really want to put your work on the blanket, it will wear down faster. The mortar will help, if that is all you have. If you have some fire brick, try covering them with the mortar to help protect the firebrick. Most firebrick and mortar will not stand up to flux for very long, but it will be better than non as the blanket will not stand up against flux. Use pieces of blanket to protect the burner tips. You can pack it right around them, leaving just a tiny bit exposed is okay. Too much and they will slowly deteriorate, not while in use, but when you shut down. The heat will be enough to heat up the tips and cause scaling, but this does take some time to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Fantastic! Congratulations! Looks like you have a low welding heat which is excellent. You have a nice swirl going which gives good mixing. Cant be sure from the pix, but I don't see much scale on that piece of rebar. Some gas forges have a problem with that at high temps. Most mortars are fairly forgiving and you can keep patching them. You will probably have to patch sections regularly as part of maintenance. A hard refractory lining doesn't have this problem. You still have the front pretty wide open. I'm impressed that the forge gets so hot that way but it will eat a lot of gas to keep up with the heat loss. Try blocking it up with a solid wall of bricks leaving something like a 4"x3" window in the middle. I try to keep the window just big enough to accomodate the work I am doing at the time. Its a bit unusual to see a first forge work so well on first firing. Mine didn't. I credit the fact that you followed a tried and true design as closely as you could and resisted the temptation to reengineer. Judging from the exhaust, it looks like your gas/air mix is about right. You should experiment with different levels. Small forges don't always run hottest going pedal to the metal and sometimes the best heat up setting is not the same as the hotest cruising setting. Also things change depending on how you have the front window configured. 3/8" is a good size to start with. Although that forge will handle much heavier stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the advice. I had my blower choked way down, it is too big for the tips. I will get it tuned soon I hope. I am going to make an insulated door for the rear opening and I have some ideas for the front. I am supposed to be getting about 40 chrome-mag fire bricks from my father-in-law (horse trade). He said they are really good and should last me. I was doubting it at first but once it got up to temp and I got the fuel adjusted to maintain the heat I was relieved. The heat was so intense,I burned the hair of of my left hand when I got to close. I can use this thing to heat my shop, if I ever get sides put on it. Thanks to everyone for all the help so far. I probably won't get to work on it any more until this weekend but I'll post my progress. Edited January 10, 2011 by bmazingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 here is video of my forge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Here are a few more pictures. I am almost done, just have the rear door to do and the rear shelf. The forge takes a few minutes to get up to temp but it seems to maintain the heat with very little work. I am going to anneal some blade material this week/weekend. So I'll know more then. The front door hinges to the right and the bricks can be moved ot to allow wider pieces. I attached the 2" of blanket to the door with wire. I figured that would work and if it burns up the wire its an easy fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 I run my forge for the first time tonight. The first time with real purpose, not just testing. I heated some steal for annealing. Here are a few pics. The forge performed wonderfully. Very easy to get a yellow heat on thin steel, takes a little more time on 1/4". I actually had two pieces of bandsaw blade that felt like they were sticking together. I may try to weld this weekend. Do I need to anneal the steel before I try to it or does it matter? I plan to anneal it befor I use for blades or what ever. I mostly want to see if I have the heat. Thanks for all the help In some of the pictures I had the flash on. The yellow was brighter than what shows in the picture of the hot blade, even though the flash was off for that picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hey guys, just a quick update. Forge is working great. I haven't got to use it much because of weather and work, but the times I have used it, the forged was awesome. I would like to thank you all for helping me. I hope I get to build many things using the forge. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted April 20, 2011 Author Share Posted April 20, 2011 I have been using the forge and for general forging it works great. But I have noticed that when I crank up the gas and air for welding I have a problem. The high temp mortar begins to melt in one spot. I thought at first it was from the borax, but I think now that it is more heat developing at the rear burner. Jymm Hoffman mentioned that I may have to adjust the burner tips to equalize the flow. I think he was correct. I believe this is what is happening: At lower temps (lower air/fuel pressure) the burners are or appear to be equal. This is probably not the case bu it is hard to tell. Then when I turn up the air/fuel pressure for welding the pressure/heat increases and creates a hot spot on the floor in front of the rear burner. Over a period of time it eventually heats the mortar to a point that it melts and then melts the ceramic wool. I think I can use some stainless steel pot scrubber (really coarse) to slow down the flow to the rear burner. I am going to remove the pipe plug from the end of my burner assembly and insert the ss wool between the two burners. This should restrict the flow to the rear burner. If any one else has any ideas please post. I will try to get some pictures posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcrucible Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 An alternative suggestion to turning down the heat would be to make it tolerate heat better. If you skinned at least that area with the 3000 degree castable it should stand up to it better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmazingo Posted April 26, 2011 Author Share Posted April 26, 2011 An alternative suggestion to turning down the heat would be to make it tolerate heat better. If you skinned at least that area with the 3000 degree castable it should stand up to it better. I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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