First gas forge

[bmazingo]

What was your inspiration for the huge one? It looks like a cartoon/anime knife, but usable in its huge proportions. Looks like you have a good start on this.

Phil

That is my brother's pet, he designed it and shaped it from a solid piece if 1/2"x4"x17" steel. It is huge, but believe it or not, it is quite easy to handle. Very balanced and sharp, cuts like a knife, swings like an axe...little big for my taste but he likes it.

[bmazingo]

I have a few pictures of my "forge in the works",

Here is the 16" long piece of 16"od pipe I am using for the shell


Here I have welded the end of some sheet metal to the pipe and heating it so I can roll it into a tube for my end caps


My 6 year old doing Q C for me. It passed his inspection.


Welded ends of plate to complete tube. Pay no attention to the "turkey dung" welding. I was rushing, trying to beat the rain.


My completed tube, it is pretty close to round. Just needs some tweaking, cut into two rings and plate welded to complete caps for shell.

[maddog]

Pipe looks like it will be a great shell. I don't understand what the sheet metal tube is for. Is that to be your shell or the pipe?

[bmazingo]

Pipe looks like it will be a great shell. I don't understand what the sheet metal tube is for. Is that to be your shell or the pipe?

The pipe is the shell, the sheet matal tube will be the ends. The sheet metal tube has been cut in to two seperate rings and I am going to weld plate on the rings to form removable caps for the shell. The caps will be filled with either refractory cement or ceramic blanket. I will leave an opening in both front and rear cap to work through.

I have been working on the plans for making a sliding fire brick door for both the front and rear openings. But they are still in the very early stages.

I May be over engineering this thing but I think it will work. I will post a few more pictures later.

[maddog]

The pipe is the shell, the sheet matal tube will be the ends. The sheet metal tube has been cut in to two seperate rings and I am going to weld plate on the rings to form removable caps for the shell. The caps will be filled with either refractory cement or ceramic blanket. I will leave an opening in both front and rear cap to work through.

I have been working on the plans for making a sliding fire brick door for both the front and rear openings. But they are still in the very early stages.

I May be over engineering this thing but I think it will work. I will post a few more pictures later.

I see. You are preparing two rings that will be rims for the doors. Neat. You don't often see a rear door on a gas forge. Nice to have I guess but a plate with a hole in the center might be all you really need there.

Yeah it's over engineered. So what's new? If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - thats my motto :)

[bmazingo]

Here are a few more pictures




The end caps will be to the bolted to the shell, but they will be removable to make repairing the forge easier.


Still have to build my doors and burners, then I can start adding the insides. Slowly but surely getting there. What do you think about having a fire brick that can be slide up or down the change the size of the forge openings?

[pkrankow]

Slick idea.

Phil

[Jymm Hoffman]

What do you think about having a fire brick that can be slide up or down the change the size of the forge openings?

This is a common misconception many have. While the bricks may make it smaller inside, they will take fuel to heat up.
If you put 2 inches of 2300 degree 8 pound blanket in the bottom, and cover it with about 2 inches of ram, then put 1" of blanket in the top and an inch of ram in the top, you will not need to try to make it smaller. If you don't want to put in a hard top, then use 2 inches of blanket in the top and coat it. Many products available for this, the least expensive is a thinned down slurry of 3,000 degree mortar.

In the photos: the first and last one burning is a larger 2 burner with a side cut out and Thermogen ram refractory in the top as well as the bottom. These photos are of a test firing. I normally just use blanket on the doors.
The other 2 photos show the bottom with ram and the top with the slurry of 3,000 degree mortar. I stopped using this method as it does eventually pull away, especially when hit too many times. The ram in the top has made the most durable systems. As long as it is not too thick in the top, it only takes a couple of minutes longer to heat up, but only minutes. Once heated up, they are very hot and efficient.

Repeat: I do lots of forge welding and the ram is impervious to the flux. You might, I stress might, find something cheaper, but it will not last as long. Fire brick also has a problem with thermal shock causing it to break down, even if you don't forge weld.

I would also recommend cutting your shell in 1/2 to make it easier to line. When using the ram in the top, I normally let it set up over night before putting together. It is still wet and pliable. So I started inserting a piece of sheet formed to the inner curved, with U shaped straps to hold in place and fire it up.

[bmazingo]

What do you think about having a fire brick that can be slide up or down the change the size of the forge openings?

This is a common misconception many have. While the bricks may make it smaller inside, they will take fuel to heat up.

I think we are thinking of two different things??? I want to use a brick that will slide up and down on the outside of the forge to change the size of the opening through which the work will pass. Much like the metal doors shown in your last picture, but instead of swinging the brick will slide in a track. I can put holes say 1/2" apart (vertically) allowing me to increase to hieght of the opening base on the size of the piece being worked. (more over engineering)

Could I just use blanket and then coat the chamber with the mortar? How big do you think the chamber should be? If I wanted to put a brick inside to lay stuff on couldn't I coat it in mortar to increase the temp range?

[bmazingo]

Here is my burner, it turned out pretty good, still have to test fire it. I may extend it to a 3 tip design by adding another tee on the end where the plug is.


I really lucked up on my fitting arrangement, I can change the tip sizes from 1"-1 1/2"-2" depending on what I need or how they work.


Here is the 1" tip with 0.100" opening.

[bmazingo]

Finished up my burner tonight. I loose fitted all the pipe and joints. Use 2" for the new tips and for all the metal piping. Have a 2" ball valve to control the air and a 1/2" ball valve to control fuel.

I also aquired a blower. It is the type used on the smaller inflatable slides, designed for contined use. Draws 5.5 amps of 120v. This thing puts out some air and has pretty decent pressure. Only down side is it has a plastic housing. I will just pipe it further away and maybe protect it with some sheet metal. I am going to try to do an open air test of the burner tomorrow. Man I hope this thing cooks.

[Jymm Hoffman]

Don't be disappointed if you have troubles keeping the burners lit in an open air test. It may take a few tries to find the balance in how much air to how much gas to put into the mix. This is different than when inside the forge.

[bmazingo]

Don't be disappointed if you have troubles keeping the burners lit in an open air test. It may take a few tries to find the balance in how much air to how much gas to put into the mix. This is different than when inside the forge.

I seem to recall reading that somewhere. I know the hoter the forge gets the more completely the fuel is burned.

Unfortunately both my boys have the flu. So I am watching them while the wife is at work. Did not get to test it today maybe in the morning. Did get some more pics.

The 2" tips are much larger than the 1".

[Jymm Hoffman]

Hope your boys are feeling better soon.

If you have another 2" T and plug, or nipple and cap, I would suggest changing out the elbow that is closest to the burners. Take another look at my 3 burner, same method used for 2. If you review my email, this is recommended as the abrupt change helps to mix the fuel and air as well as equalizing the pressure along the manifold. When I used elbows, I would normally have to open one burner tip in the initial firing. The smooth flow normally shoots the gas and air past the first burner. If you don't have another T, try it, You may have enough distance and the plugged T at the end may be enough.

[bmazingo]

Hope your boys are feeling better soon.

If you have another 2" T and plug, or nipple and cap, I would suggest changing out the elbow that is closest to the burners. Take another look at my 3 burner, same method used for 2. If you review my email, this is recommended as the abrupt change helps to mix the fuel and air as well as equalizing the pressure along the manifold. When I used elbows, I would normally have to open one burner tip in the initial firing. The smooth flow normally shoots the gas and air past the first burner. If you don't have another T, try it, You may have enough distance and the plugged T at the end may be enough.

Good info, I will try to find one around the house if not I will get one in town. I also have to get a line to run from the regulator to the fuel valve. All I have is 1/4", not big enough right?. May get a piece of 1/2" copper. I also have some metal flex-condiut to protect my fuel line and power cord.

I can test the flow with out fuel, should be able to tell if the flow is the same to an extent.

[Jymm Hoffman]

Good info, I will try to find one around the house if not I will get one in town. I also have to get a line to run from the regulator to the fuel valve. All I have is 1/4", not big enough right?. May get a piece of 1/2" copper. I also have some metal flex-condiut to protect my fuel line and power cord.

I can test the flow with out fuel, should be able to tell if the flow is the same to an extent.

Correct, 1/2 copper will be fine, if you get the rubber propane approved stuff, you can more easily move the forge around the shop. I used copper and black iron for several years, before putting my forges on carts with wheels. I love my forge carts on wheels!

[bmazingo]

Correct, 1/2 copper will be fine, if you get the rubber propane approved stuff, you can more easily move the forge around the shop. I used copper and black iron for several years, before putting my forges on carts with wheels. I love my forge carts on wheels!

I was thinking about a cart also. My space it limited in the shop because we also work on our cars in it. It would be nice to be able to roll the forge out of the way when not in use. I have a tool cart I made for work but never finished (lack of materials). I could convert it pretty easy. If I put it on cart I could mount my regulator to it and hard line from there to the forge. I have some hose to use from the tank to the regulator.

Got to go get parts, later.

[bmazingo]

I have a BURNER!!!! And it is hard to keep it lit in open air especially with 15mph gusts. But when the wind is down it is great. 1/2-1 psi works good. Blower is a little over kill. I think a third tip would work good.




I will try to get a few pics after dark. What type of flame am I looking for. The flame when I get it adjusted just right alomost completely blue, no orange or yellow. I am excited!!!!!

Now to get some insulation for ths thing.

[bmazingo]

Oh yeah while I was at the scrap yard to day, I found this old burner.




Can any one of you tell me for sure what this for? I am thinking it came out of an old heater. Looks like it will still work. Needs a valve and regulator. Man they just don't make thing like this any more.

I was thinking about using it in a heater for my shop, cost me a whole $1.

[maddog]

I will try to get a few pics after dark. What type of flame am I looking for. The flame when I get it adjusted just right alomost completely blue, no orange or yellow. I am excited!!!!!

Looks good. Slightly rich perhaps. Blue is neutral which is about where you want to be. The flame isn't stable. It's separating from the tip. But none of this matters. This burner is designed to run inside a forge chamber where you will judge the mix by the exhaust.

[bmazingo]

Looks good. Slightly rich perhaps. Blue is neutral which is about where you want to be. The flame isn't stable. It's separating from the tip. But none of this matters. This burner is designed to run inside a forge chamber where you will judge the mix by the exhaust.

This is a pretty big flame Probably overkill.

I tried my smaller tips and they were too small for my blower. It was too much velocity, kept blowing out the flame.

I believe my blower is putting putting out too much pressure with just the 2 nozzles. I am going to add a third nozzle. I believe this will even out the pressure some. I am also going to add another tee at the bootom (with some type of adjusable flap) to use as a pressure relief. It will be set and left alone, the adjustment after that will be done with the ball valve.

I am going to try to get the burner mounted night so I can see how it performs inside the shell.


Hey I froze up my tank last night, but it was pretty cold outside. My solution was/is a halogen lamp, seem to help.

[maddog]

This is a pretty big flame Probably overkill.

I tried my smaller tips and they were too small for my blower. It was too much velocity, kept blowing out the flame.

I believe my blower is putting putting out too much pressure with just the 2 nozzles. I am going to add a third nozzle. I believe this will even out the pressure some. I am also going to add another tee at the bootom (with some type of adjusable flap) to use as a pressure relief. It will be set and left alone, the adjustment after that will be done with the ball valve.

I am going to try to get the burner mounted night so I can see how it performs inside the shell.


Hey I froze up my tank last night, but it was pretty cold outside. My solution was/is a halogen lamp, seem to help.

Jymm is the expert on these burners of course, but I wouldn't add a third nozzle. You have plenty of burner for that size forge. It's much harder to get a stable flame in open air. The forge chamber even when cold will help keep the flame going. Once it gets hot, its not an issue at all since the mix will ignite from contact with the hot walls. You just need one setting that is stable so you can get a spot in chamber to orange. I don't understand your fixed bypass scheme. You will need to run the forge at different settings for different temps. This means some kind of adjustment to the air as well as the gas.

[Dodge]

Jymm is the expert on these burners of course, but I wouldn't add a third nozzle. You have plenty of burner for that size forge. It's much harder to get a stable flame in open air. The forge chamber even when cold will help keep the flame going. Once it gets hot, its not an issue at all since the mix will ignite from contact with the hot walls. You just need one setting that is stable so you can get a spot in chamber to orange. I don't understand your fixed bypass scheme. You will need to run the forge at different settings for different temps. This means some kind of adjustment to the air as well as the gas.

I agree with maddod. The flame shape is only important until the forge walls get hot enough to ignite the fuel/air mixture. After that, the forge is the flame holder and then you can adjust the fuel/air mix by watching the Dragon's Breath and varying fuel and air flow.

Scott

[bmazingo]

Jymm is the expert on these burners of course, but I wouldn't add a third nozzle. You have plenty of burner for that size forge. It's much harder to get a stable flame in open air. The forge chamber even when cold will help keep the flame going. Once it gets hot, its not an issue at all since the mix will ignite from contact with the hot walls. You just need one setting that is stable so you can get a spot in chamber to orange. I don't understand your fixed bypass scheme. You will need to run the forge at different settings for different temps. This means some kind of adjustment to the air as well as the gas.

After reading your reply I am skipping the bypass scheme and I am going to concentrate on getting everything mounted.
I have go to get this thing running because I want to be able to use it soon. I have got to get some blanket, does any one know the cheapest place to get it? I have found several places but the prices vary. What brands are best? Can I get by with a 6lb instead of 8lb? Also can I just use furnace mortar (3000F+) for my inner coating until I find someting better?

Has any one ever heard of a chrome mag fire brick? I may be getting a bunch of them (crossed fingures) for cheap (free). Don't know what I'll do with them if I do. But hey I like free stuff.

thanks guys, now I am off to work.

[maddog]

After reading your reply I am skipping the bypass scheme and I am going to concentrate on getting everything mounted.
I have go to get this thing running because I want to be able to use it soon. ....

I think that's a good plan. Get the thing running before you do more design. Once you've played with it a bit and have some real experience, you will have a more realistic undersanding of what you want. I suggest you set up a temporary mount with clamps and run it like that a few times. ( That doesnt mean slipshod. Take some care over it. If your fuel line comes loose in the middle of things, your life will suddenly get very exciting!)

I have recently bought refractory supplies from an ebay merchant , Hi Temp Ebay Store His prices are reasonable, he was helpful and knowledgeable when I talked to him and he has or can get whatever you need. Just one suggestion for a source. You will only need a few sq ft of wool but you will need some kind of coating or liner for it.