lupiphile Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 hey Y'all, long time looking, first time posting ect.ect......, so I've procured one used phoenix forging hammer, all fine well and good, exempting it's host of ailments. Despite what I've always considered to be a mechanical inclination(ahem..) I cannot,for whatever reason, get the hammer to hit beyond about 90bpm.Which is just too slow to get anything done.Previous to this hammer, I was best versed on a saymak 88, so this is just an entirely different thing. I thought it was an air problem,but I put in a larger regulator, and an extra resevoir close to the hammer, and have tried adjusting the valve linkages all to no avail. I did succeed at getting the hammer to hit the ram assembly harder than the bottom die a few times, hardly progress. Mayhaps one of you extraordinarily informed, hammer obsessed older gents,might lend a helping hand.Thankfully it wieghs 4500lbs or I'd've thrown the thing in the river by now. thank you all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaudeteforge Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Have you tried contacting the company. Tom was always good for a book length response anytime I wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Before I had purchased the hammer, I wrote the company several times and tried calling after that,all without any luck. This coupled with the fact,that everyone,I know has pretty much the same amount of luck getting in touch with them , led me to seek the guidance of you all first, but your right I hadn't even tried contacting them recently. Thanks , I'll try that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) Before I had purchased the hammer, I wrote the company several times and tried calling after that,all without any luck. This coupled with the fact,that everyone,I know has pretty much the same amount of luck getting in touch with them , led me to seek the guidance of you all first, but your right I hadn't even tried contacting them recently. Thanks , I'll try that out. I would count any help from Tom or his wife out. Even though I did once actually get a call back from his wife, three or four months after I started sending emails... They never did send me the promised instructions or parts.. It sounds to me like you dont have enough volume of air... First off you didnt say anyting about how much air your feeding the thing.. It takes a 10 HP industrial two stage compressor ( a 7.5 will work at first but not keep up over heavy forging) and it needs to be plumbed clear to the hammer with at least 3/4 (1" is better) line or hose When I didn't have three phase at my home shop I ran mine on three 5 horse compressors all tied together to keep enough air supplied.... If you have enough air then There is a throttle valve on the side of the mechanism behind a cover... It can be adjusted down to slow the hammer... Thats where I would start... Let me know if you have any other questions (The hammer I had was a 125lb Bull, but my understanding is the air mechanism operates the same.. Oh... and If you decided to give up.... I'll have a trucking company come pick the thing up, I wouldn't want you contaminating the river with that dirty steel.... Actually if you decided you wanted to sell it I know the Kayne family (Blacksmtih Depot) loves those hammers, I brokered a deal for them on a Bull some time back and they said if I hear of others to give them a buzz.... Come to think of it they are probably a good source of info on them as well.... Edited December 16, 2009 by Mod17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I'll second that. Give Steve or David a call their great guys. Haven't seen Tom since the abana meeting at Kaynes, He hasen't been answering us locals either. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 It may need a new shuttle valve or just a shot of air tool oil in the old one to loosen it up. I'd bet on friction causing the shuttle to move sluggishly. These valves wear out and as they do they slow down and eventually stick. The shuttle is moved by air pressure and it is also possible that something is restrictive there. The trigger valve sends air pulses to the shuttle via small air lines and the shuttle directs air into and out of the cylinder via the big hoses. I don't know the brand of your valves, but if you take it to a pneumatics store they can probably get you a replacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 It may need a new shuttle valve or just a shot of air tool oil in the old one to loosen it up. I'd bet on friction causing the shuttle to move sluggishly. These valves wear out and as they do they slow down and eventually stick. The shuttle is moved by air pressure and it is also possible that something is restrictive there. The trigger valve sends air pulses to the shuttle via small air lines and the shuttle directs air into and out of the cylinder via the big hoses. I don't know the brand of your valves, but if you take it to a pneumatics store they can probably get you a replacement. Yeah I would defiantly check that out to... If they are just dry or sticky sometimes it helps to shoot a little penetrating oil in the air line because its thinner it will free things up.. then put in a extra dose of air tool oil immediately following Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 thank you for all of your responses monster metal, Ive got plenty of air methinks, 7.5hp 128cfm compressor, with 3/4 air lines and full port regulator. Ive also installed an extra air resevior right next to the air intake on the hammer. sadly it performs all the same. Mr. nichols: I was hoping you'd offer your insight. The shuttle valve eh? I'll try that out. Also, I'd been having trouble getting the ram to hit squarely and without wobble, though whenever I tighten the guide blocks enough, to keep the ram stationary, it does just that, or sticks at the top of the stroke, or moves even more sluggishly. do nylon guideblocks really work or should I impose a bronze standard on my shop. So kayne and sons, are the folks to talk to huh? I'll give them a call. Monster metal, about polluting the river, I'm not sure if you've been to philly and seen the mighty, sinking, fetid, schuykill, but the only worries Id have, would be getting the hammer to sink, in that mess. thank you for everyone's interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 DO NOT USE PENETRATING OIL!!!!!!!!!!! The mioracle oils will cause the synthetic rubber seals to swell. Simply use the same air tool oil that carpenters use in their tools; available everywhere in home stroes. Light oil like #10 and automatic transmission fluid work, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lupiphile Posted December 18, 2009 Author Share Posted December 18, 2009 oops...well on the bright side, the snap sure has returned to my hammer. I did in fact use a small amount of wd-40 followed by a fair amount of air tool oil. The hammer responded kindly to that. It was like night and day. hopefully I haven't inflicted any kind of permenant damage. But in any case, that did seem to be the problem. Now, on to the guide conundrum, as it stands it has sort of a sloppy rolling hit, when it tighten the guides anymore than they already are, the ram slows waaay down and sometimes sticks. It would work beautifully if I was really into parallelograms but as yet I've yet to find the clients whose tastes are so mechanically accomodating. If you all know any tricks for those hmw nylon guides please let me know. This forum is like throwing your two cents into a wishing well and getting fistfulls of quarters thrown back at you. thank you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Sounds like your well and truely on the right track with the air circuits etc. I am afraid I cant offer any advice on them as I know squat about them (that style of hammer is very rare on this side of the pond,) On the guides I would back them off a bit and move the ram through its travel by hand (or fork truck, you know what I mean) - check its moving 'square' to the guides, ie nothing bent or damaged. I would then set the guides against the tup with some 0.010" shims in to start with and try again. Try some molly grease on the guides. Check the slides havent worn more at the bottom of the stroke than the top,. If they have is there anyway of turning them over (top to bottom)? The slides want to be parallel, or a slight 'toe out' at the top. I think if they are worn I would be tempted to put some phozzy bronze one in as replacements. Some pics of the hammer might help I.D the problem a little more accuratly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Glad the air tool oil is working. On the guides, synthetic materials may help IF the tup and guides are both steel and a bit galled. Steel against steel, even lubed, tends not to be the best system. I prefer malleable cast iron guides in my hammers, but doubt that kind of retrofit in a Phoenix/Bull is readily possible. You may want to remove the tup and do some micrometer measurements to assess wear. The tup has to be extremely paralled side-to-side, otherwise the guides adjusted at the top of the stroke will not be right at the bottom of the stroke. A friendly machine shop can tweak the tup as needed. The Phoenix/Bull tup and guide system is very simple and easy to work on. But one problem others have noted over the years is that the guides aren't particularly long so that it is easy to have a sloppy fit at the bottom of the stroke. Thus, if there has been wear it will tend to be located at the critical top and bottom spots. If you should find the current guides are plastic you can pretty well bet they are worn and/or mushroomed. Replaced, you're likely to have much better hammering precision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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