smitty7 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Can anyone help me with my collars? I've read many tutorials(sp) and still they come out beat all to h***! I know that I'm getting them too hot but if I don't then I get cold cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Admin Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Check the Blueprints BP0267 Making a Collar or Clip By Strine, HWooldridge, Irnsrgn, Ten Hammers, Frogvalley, Rantalin, 6013, Ed Thomas, B.H., and Jim Carothers This is more than just a tutorial, it is a look into how blacksmiths solve problems. The original topic is discussed on "How to make a Collar" under problem solving If you use the search feature on this forum: Collar > gives 20 results, Clip > gives 11 results. If others have better information or ideas, please chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Smitty: Can you home in on the part which gives you the trouble? I can walk you through different parts, but I doubt it would be any better than the tutorials you already have. In broad strokes: 1) Make a staple, shaped a lot like those metal staples used to hold electrical wiring. Or fence staples, except squared off instead of rounded. This should be a snug fit on three sides of the pieces to be collared, and enough left over to overlap. The ends should be tapered. 2) Hammer over each end of the collar. That's it. I almost always heat the ends with a torch tip before folding over because then the collar will shrink fit. Or you can heat the whole clip in the forge, put it in place, and hammer over the ends. The usual culprit in buggered up collars is over-hammering. The collar works because it is a proper fit BEFORE you install it. You can't correct a bad fit by banging on it. When the collar is in place (like a staple), hammer one side over and then the other. Resist the urge to hammer them down tight after they are already done. All that does is spread the collar and sabotage your fit. Just fold the ends over nicely and LEAVE IT ALONE. I found that practicing with scrap pieces helped tremendously. Make it simple. Take two equally sized small pieces such as two 1/2" square bars. Make a collar of 3/16" x 1/2". Stop IMMEDIATELY after firmly folding the two ends over. Test the fit. Is it loose? Maybe you can hammer the ends down a bit more. Try it. Is it tight? Now hammer it every which way, stopping and studying what happens as you go. You'll soon see the effects of hitting too much or not enough or the wrong place. Don't forget to support the back side of the collar somehow as you hammer over the ends. If you are having trouble shaping the collar, let me know. I just presume that you got that part covered from the tutorials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty7 Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Thanks for the quick replies. And I know that I'm overworking them but I can't resist just trying to tweek it just a little more. My problem is I'm trying to collar 1/4" round stock. Just need to pratice, sigh. There ain't no free lunch. smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Smitty, you are probably hitting them too hard, get them up to a good mid orange heat and then lightly tape them around the peice, then for added security, sneak a mig/tig/stick weld on them, if you feel they are not tight enough.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 You should see my snake tale collar, it is a way of joining two peices of steel so that no welds are involved, and holds as tight as a good handshake. I'll get some pictures up soon, as well as a blueprint maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Apprentice: There is no need to weld when using collars. Collars are an architectural join, not just an afterthought to hide the metal bugger. Smitty: I find the smaller stuff to be more difficult, partly because there is less room for error. In round stock, especially that small, you'll want to have the contour of the staple match the contour of the two round rods. Use two rods or forge a scrap 1/2" x 1/4" to use as a pattern. Now you'll have the clip. Then you can heat the clip in the forge, put it on the anvil, hold it down with the two pieces to be collared, and squeeze the ends over with tongs or pliers. While still hot, tamp the ends down firmly and let it cool. The collar shrinks as it cools and draws tightly around the two pieces if the fit is good. If you continue to hammer while it is cooling, it can't draw tighter because you're forging it loose as it shrinks. If you've done a good job of it, the parts will be drawn tight together and as it shrinks you'll hear this rewarding little: "tink". The shrinkage isn't much, so you must have a good fit, and you must be quick. So, yes... practice a few times and you'll get it. The round stock doesn't collar very well because it wants to roll around inside. So you will have to anchor the round stock at other points somehow so it can't rotate or roll. Otherwise the collar is wasted. You also might considered hammering a slight flat spot on each round part where they butt together to discourage that rolling around. What are you making that requires forging that small??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty7 Posted August 24, 2006 Author Share Posted August 24, 2006 I have this good customer who wants a stand that she can put 3, 14" cake plates on. The 1/4" rods are for the uprights, kinda looks like the silowette of a bell. (how's that for some creative spelling). Anyway I forged some leaves for the top and figured that a collar would look good to hold the three uprights together. smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Smitty: Okay, I think I understand what you are doing. I have some suggestions, though. 1) Go bigger. Using 1/4" for anything but the smallest of hooks is a waste of forging time. For a cake stand, especially one expected to hold THREE cakes, I wouldn't use less than 3/8" square. 2) Every part of every piece made by a blacksmith should be forged. If you just use dimensioned stock and bend it, it has no life. The main reason forged iron is so interesting as a material is because the process of working it creates all these reflective facets. Perfectly round stock is boring. Crisp milled rectangular stock is boring. Carefully re-forged iron is interesting. The reason I say this is that down there at 1/4" round, you will be hard-pressed to do much re-forging, and the results would be so sparse as to not be worth the effort. In my stuff, I often use round stock and hammer it square with relieved (beveled) edges. 3) Ignore what you see in Walmart and Lowes and magazines as models. They are imitating us; not the other way around. They ALWAYS use stock that is too small and boring. 4) Although it is not impossible, collaring three round pieces together is practically a recipe for frustration. Skip the round stuff if you can. Did I mention that I think round is boring? If you must collar them, consider forging the inside to a 120 degree angle so that the three pieces can't roll around each other. "Close" to 120 is good enough... I just mean put flat surfaces against each other as I said before. 5) A typical way of joining multiple round pieces is by "wrapping" them rather than collaring. I think this is way overdone, so I don't recommend it. But if you get in a bind, and have already committed yourself mentally or orally to this design, consider taking a wire of smaller diameter (yeesh...you'd be down to 1/8" welding wire) and simply winding it a few times around the bundle of 1/4" round stuff. You see this a lot in the current crop of wine bottle holders, with the wrap pretending to be a vine tentacle... sometimes with a leaf of some sort. Then on your next project, plan to use bigger stock in a design that allows you some proper collars more easily. 6) Do NOT weld. Working with small stuff and looking at pictures of fabricated imitation stuff will lead you down this path. Though it will be easy and gratifying at first, you will feel dirty and used and cheap the next morning. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefthand forge Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Well, if your dismissing welding them, or wrapping them. (which I personally wouldn't, but then I have to pay the bills doing this.) what about a forge weld or braze? Or I might forge a flatish ball or some other interesting shape, then drill 3 very slitely overlapping 1/4' holes in a cloverleaf pattern,heat the piece and slip the rods through the holes so that it would heat shrink onto the rods. BTW if you will make yourself a set tool with the profile of your collar ground, or forged into it you can finish your collars without marring them. Just make sure all the edges are well relieved. Hope this helps John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 John: I like your shrinkfit ball with holes idea. Since I've never done it myself, I wasn't sure how well it would work. Someday I'm going to have to play with that idea. I couldn't picture how forge-welding would help Smitty in this particular application. I just keep thinking that by the time he forge-welded three 1/4" rods together, he wouldn't have enough material left to be much of a support for three cakes. It seems like there are several solutions to joining the 1/4" wires but they feel more like work-arounds than optimal choices for construction. Smitty: If your project is really more like wire-art than forging, that's a different animal. I haven't done any of that, but have seen some quite interesting results by other people. I hope you post pictures of your final results. Also, your "failures" would be nice to see, if you don't mind. It would be very instructional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I do this neat cake cover and plate holder, it looks like a 3/4 around metal base that goes around underneath the plate itself, and then coming off of that, up and over the cake itself is a shephard's hook style arch, so that when you take the cover off of the peice of cake/pie/tray of muffins/tray of cupcakes, you can hang the glass cover right on a little hook at the end of the shephards hook. When the cover is hanging on the hook as well it acts as a sneezeguard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty7 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thanks for all of the great ideas and lord knows I need all of the help I can get. I understand about the round bar being boring but man I was proud of those leaves and figured 'man, I got this stuff, what's so hard about blacksmithing'. sigh, humbled down to a greasy spot. smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty7 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Mr Ed, I don't have a camera, too broke and hired out but I do appreicate you all taking time out to help this old broke down welder. I get a lot of enjoyment out of this and the other two forums. Thanks smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smitty7 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thanks for all of the great ideas, I need all of the help I can get. I understand about the round bar being boring but man I was proud of those leaves and figured 'man, I got this stuff, what's so hard about blacksmithing'. sigh, humbled down to a greasy spot. smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefthand forge Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Hi Ed. Rereading my post I'm afraid I may have come off sounding a bit snotty. I'm sorry I certainly didn't mean it to be. just not used to talking on a computer. As to the forge welding you are correct of course. What I was envisioning was wrapping or collaring the rods as discussed and then forge welding the whole mess together to gain mass then forging or grinding to shape like you would do a detail in the middle of a picket. If that made any sense? At any rate, I agree that next time it would be better to use large enough material for support, and to allow for some interesting manipulation of the metal. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 John: No problem -- I didn't take your post badly at all. On the forge-welded bundle... I've not had much success with that. I've welded plenty of bundles together, but the collar puts a bit of a shield around the rods at that point. So while it is difficult to get the rods beneath the collar up to welding temp, the rod parts which extend on either side of the collar are exposed and cheerfully heat right up. By heating very slowly and bringing the whole mess up the temp VERY carefully, it can be done, but it's tricky. The picket elements are easier because the picket has a good bit more mass than these 1/4" wires. Plus Smitty would need to make a swage for the weld. Maybe somebody here has used that technique for the top of a basket handle? I've always simply welded the bundle, but have seen the swage-welded ball, so it is an option. We're just going to have to get Smitty a camera to see what's really going on. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith58 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 The way I learned to make collars was to measure and add all four sides together then add 2.5 times the thickness of the collar for the overall length of the collar. Next put opposit bevels on each end of the flat collar. Hammer, break or releave the edges that wil remain exposed or the out side of the collar. Chase or chissle a groove or grooves down the center of the collar for a decorative affect. Now you're ready to use the collaring Die. Make a die the same size as the piece you are colloring. Form the first bend of the Staple in the vise, place the forming die in the fold and fold the second leg of the staple. These two bends can be done cold but sometimes you'l get a crack form on the outside corner, sometime I have to use mild heat (red to mid orange) with a torch to keep from cracking. Now you have a proper fitting collar. When installing the colar, make sure you are on a solid surface (nice steel layout table or an anvil if you have a good way of supporting the rest of the project), with a torch, heat one side of the collar to a bright orange toward yellow. Start hammering on the side then work your way around the edge sharply bending the leg of the staple. repeat for the other leg of the staple and you will find the bevelled edges you started the collar off with will oveerlay each other for a nice closure. Quit hammering on the collar. Later after all of your installed collars had coold naturally, check them to see if they are tight. Tap of the work somewhere lightly. If you hear a buzing rattle sound, one or moore of your collars are lose. To tighten a loose collar, use a pair of vise grips and clamp across the opening side of the loose collar. Clamp it tight! Use a torch and heat the long flat sid of the collar (Top of the original Staple) the steel will expand, however the vise grip will prevent it from moving and forces the metal to Upset within itself and whne cooling it shrinks therefore tighteniong it self back up. Hear is a photo of a sample peice I made for customers and it shows several types of joints, collars, rivets scroll, etc. there are 21 different processes in this piece. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Thomas Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 Rick: That is very nice work. However, you might want to go back and read the whole posting to get a better feel for the original issue. Square (rectangular) collars are straight forward. Smitty was asking about binding 3 small round pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strine Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 6) Do NOT weld. Working with small stuff and looking at pictures of fabricated imitation stuff will lead you down this path. Though it will be easy and gratifying at first, you will feel dirty and used and cheap the next morning. well said....I love it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDrew Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 Thanks for the quick replies. And I know that I'm overworking them but I can't resist just trying to tweek it just a little more. My problem is I'm trying to collar 1/4" round stock. Just need to pratice, sigh. There ain't no free lunch. smitty Advice from a surgeon: The enemy of good is better. I've had some great misadventures starting with "just trying to get a little better" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valentin Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 i have 2 beat more than 2000 collars for the fence that i am doing now ... i admit that i am cheating ...i am not heating the iron i weld the pieces i grind the welding and then beatin up the coolars at cold ....i am forming the collars with this press that u see in the picture ...verry fast and verry easy but they are ...a lot of collars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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