Passed on a nice South Bend Lathe today

[Matthew Groves]

You all know the feeling.

Nice machine, lots of tooling. You bid only so far. Someone else goes farther.

Did you let a deal walk away? Should you have?

Oh well.

[rthibeau]

If it's a really really great deal - no, you take it even if you don't need it, you can always move it on. If it gets to be a good deal, eh...who knows. If the bidding gets high enough, it's not a good deal, not even a deal.. you let it walk. But if the moon is right, the weather's nice, there's money in your pocket....and it's a really neat thing...and the wife is not there..:)

[Matthew Groves]

Well, if they just made a book that listed what the "good deal" price was, we could all follow it.

I walked at $1200 for the 9" South Bend, quick change gears, 4 ft bed, all the chucks, collets and taper attachment, etc.

[Ed Thomas]

Matthew: Except for the taper attachment, which seems to inexplicably routinely sell for $300+, that is not an especially desirable deal on a SB 9". For instance, a 10" SB on ebay with a taper attachment in VA just sold for a bit over $800. It looked in pretty good shape from the pictures. If you are searching for a lathe, you would be better off checking onto the Practical Machinist forum and doing searches on lathes. There are literally thousands of posts of advice on what to look for, reasonable prices, and where to get them. They even have a topic area devoted to the South Bend. There probably are a handful of us that know a little bit about machines on this board, but since it isn't the focus of the blacksmithing forum, you won't get the depth of help you will get on the machinist board.

www.practicalmachinist.com

So much depends on what you want to do with the lathe, how much you know about lathes, what your space requirements are, and so on. I disagree on buying machines that are "bargains". Only buy what YOU want unless you are very familiar with them. Chances are they are a bargain for a reason. Further, machines are not trivial to move, maintain, or store. If you can't use it, and you can't sell it easily, it will be VERY much in the way.

Precision machining tools need attention and maintenance. A $30,000 fine lathe can be reduced to scrap iron right quickly from neglect and exposure. So if you aren't prepared to keep it stored and preserved, it is a liability, not an investment.

However, if YOU want a lathe and don't know anything about them, and someone practically GIVES you one (which happens when people find out you want one) you should definitely get one. They are very handy in a blacksmith shop and a LOT of fun. An old South Bend is a good choice because they are so common, relatively cheap, and take a lot of abuse.

They also tend to look like all the rest of the tools in the blacksmith shop so your decor will not suffer.

[HWooldridge]

Machine tools (like so many other things) often have regional pricing. Lathes are fairly common in the NE and Midwest but not so much here in South Texas. Yes, there are/were machine shops around here but not to the tune of what is around some of the "motor cities" and other industrial centers. Therefore, it might be easier to get $1200-$1500 here or some place where they are not so common. I paid $1500 almost twenty years ago for a 10" Sheldon with all the chucks and such but no taper attachment. It is not pristine but has served my needs and paid for itself many times over.

Mesquite is similar from the commodity perspective. Here, it's a weed growing everywhere. In New York, it's a designer wood for chefs and a high priced material for wood workers and carvers. Personally, I prefer oak and pecan for BBQ...

I've never walked from a deal that I still regret. I either bought and still have the item - or I sold it - or it was out of my price range. I've made a few boo-boo's buying and selling cars but always been lucky with tools of all types and cannot recall ever losing money on anything that I 'flipped' for a profit.

[rthibeau]

Obviously you have to be able to afford the thing in question before you spend the money. If it is out of your price range then it really doesn't fall into the "what a deal" category. I meant that if you had the money to spend, and you believed it was in fact a "great deal", then either for yourself or to resell, get it. Either way works in the long run.

[Ironscot]

I have to concur that you are all correct.

Necessity/application, plus ability, with inherent productive capacity of the machine all are factors in a good deal.

I've been bitten early on when it wasn't too crucial on machine deals, but when you are counting loose change then you better be absolutely sure of what you are buying. I'd rather spend a couple of hours running a 196 (or Best Test) in every direction than to get it home and discover that its sweet spot isn't so sweet.

Buy it for what you need it for. If it's for resale then it relaxes your requirements. If you're buying it to use then that's a whole nuther kettle of fish. Never assume that you can buy to use and expect a resale margine on the other end. Those deals are too few and far between and will waste your time in the middle.

JMHO

Bret

[Ed Thomas]

Another thought on the 9" SB.... If you see one you like and the price is right, there are plans for making the taper attachment for that size. In fact, those plans are the only ones I've seen for ANY lathe. Any other size lathe would require mods to the plans.

On lathe prices in general... a 10" Logan (arguably better made but the equivalent of a South Bend) is often available much cheaper than the 9" you were looking at. Here are three 820 models on ebay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-10-Metal-Lathe-820-With-Quick-Change-Gearbox_W0QQitemZ7630519818QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Logan-Model-820-10x24-Lathe_W0QQitemZ7630559661QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/820-QUICK-CHANGE-GEAR-LOGAN-LATHE-FLOOR-MODEL-MANUAL_W0QQitemZ7631331334QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here is an example of a SB taper attachment pricing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/TAPER-ATTACHMENT-FOR-SOUTH-BEND-LATHE-9-10K_W0QQitemZ7630488308QQihZ017QQcategoryZ104241QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And finally, here is a 10" SB with a taper attachment you might want to watch to see how much it goes for:

http://cgi.ebay.com/south-bend_W0QQitemZ7631110123QQihZ017QQcategoryZ97230QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[FredlyFX]

Thanks for the links Ed. One of them is just 50 miles from me. I will be putting some bids in soon. They same guy also has a nice mill listed. If things go well, I will end up with a lathe and mill out of it.

[Ed Thomas]

Fred: If you are that close, I hope you go over there and check out the machines before you commit a bid. From the pictures of his many other machines for sale, it looks to me as though the seller bought a 5 gallon bucket of Navy gray paint and wasn't afraid to use it.

On the other hand, if you win a bid for 'pick up only', and the item doesn't match the description, it's a whole lot easier to mutually back out without too many hard feelings and bad feedback.

I didn't mean to foment a lathe buying frenzy. I was just trying to show that good deals abound in older machinery right now and one can be fairly picky. But good luck either way. If they don't go too high, both machines look like they would be fun to use and learn on.

[FredlyFX]

Thanks for the heads up Ed. I printed out all the pics from the two listings and took them over to my machinest buddy Jim Riddle of Mohave Southern Machine Works while picking up some ITC 100 at lunch. He showed me what to look for in the used machines and confirmed that they would probably be ok for what I plan to do as long as they are cheap enough. I figure if I stay patient and snipe the bid in low I can't get too hurt on them. If I show up to get them and they are too beat up I can still back out and just take the neg feedback. I've been wanting a mill and a lath for a long time, but I'm not willing to pay what they frequently go for. I'm just too cheap at heart.

[Matthew Groves]

Hey Fred, don't hold back good info. What were the important points to look out for?

[Ed Thomas]

Matthew: You can get that sort of information directly and happily from the real machinists on that Practical Machinist forum. The search engine there works very well and you can read discussions on various lathe models. There is a South Bend section (just like this "Non-Blacksmithing" subsection). I have gotten oodles of information both to my own questions and from other discussions.

Here are two good places for what to look for in inspecting and buying a lathe:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/page2.html

http://www.mermac.com/

That first link is a sub page of: http://www.lathes.co.uk/ which is probably the richest resource on lathes anywhere. Here you can find a fairly detailed description and usually a good set of pictures of almost every model of every make of lathe.

I don't mean to discourage you from asking for help here, so much as I hope you'll find the machine-specific boards as helpful as I have. Sometimes it can be intimidating, but just like when starting out blacksmithing, you just jump in the deep end and take a deep breath. Surprisingly... everybody helps you just like here.

There is also at least one Yahoo group devoted to the South Bend lathe. I can't seem to get into Yahoo at the moment to give you the specific link, but I can vouch for it being a VERY useful resource.

[Ed Thomas]

Fred: I should mention that even though the last Logan lathe was made in 1985, Scott Logan still supports the lathe through his site:

http://www.lathe.com/

You can learn a little bit about the 820 here, and can buy the parts and operating manuals through him. Parts can cost more than the lathe, so try not to need them.

He also has a yahoo support group for Logans.

[FredlyFX]

What a great resource Ed. Thanks for that Logan site. You wern't kidding about the prices of parts. I nearly fell out of my chair when I looked at a couple of them. I'll definetly be very careful with it if I end up winning the bid.

Mathew: He said to look at the slide rails on the lath and the dove tails on the mill for signs of wear. He took me through his shop to point out what to look for. Many of his machines are from the 70's & 80's, but were just barely starting to show some signs of wear. He said some machines he had seen on the used market showed heavy signs of wear and abuse. Unfortunatly, the kind of stuff he was showing me is the kind of stuff you will never see in a picture really. It would have to be a good close up shot, and you don't usually see those on ebay listings.

[FredlyFX]

Man, I am totally bummed out. I have spent the last two days studying up on the Logan lathe and on Mills & lathes in general. I had gotten myself all psyched out to buy the 10" Logan lathe & the Go-Well mill.

Well, tonight the auction closed, and both items went for more than I was willing to pay. The lathe went for $661, and the mill about $531. On the mill I was actually high bidder with 17 seconds left, and got beat out. On the lathe I gave up at about $575 and it still went another $90 over that.

Probably better in the long run. I totally didn't need a mill and a lathe, but they are definetly in the sure would be nice to have category. I'll keep my eyes open, and maybe someday one will pop up in my price range.

[Ed Thomas]

Fred: I feel your pain. I have almost stopped actually "bidding" on ebay because of that frustration. About the day of or the day before the auction ends, I put in my max bid and just let it go. I probably pay a bit more for the few things I buy there than the snipers, but it's SO much easier on my head.

Don't get discouraged. I bought my 820 on ebay for about $700, because it was within a day trip to go get. Later, I watched for Gorton milling machines because they are built more ruggedly and are arguably better than the higher selling Bridgeport mills. Sure enough, I picked up a 9J (their largest one) for $600. But all my best buys have happened since these purchases. Unlike blacksmithing power tools, there is a considerable surplus of larger old machines. About two years ago, someone basically GAVE me a 1911 vintage South Bend 13" lathe with an 8' bed. I bought his torch set at a very good price and he threw in the lathe for free. It ain't purty or terribly accurate, but I just made a pretty decent bearing for my Beaudry on it.

Our local VoTech school has been even better to me. I've gotten lots of good deals at their annual auction.

Now.... what you might want to keep your eye out for is a "shaper". The medium to large sizes are basically going for scrap prices or less. I got mine for $100. These will do everything a milling machine will do, only they look better in a blacksmith's shop because they are usually 40+ years old. :)

[Ed Thomas]

Fred: Here is an interesting Horizontal Mill that might be within striking distance for you:

http://cgi.ebay.com/AMERICAN-L-A-HORIZONTAL-MILLING-MACHINE_W0QQitemZ7630768194QQihZ017QQcategoryZ12584QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Horizontal mills are quite handy. I have a small one (Hardinge) and would love to have a decent larger one. Again, most home shop owners gloss right over these tools, yet for some things they are much more useful than a vertical.

Don't forget that most of these machines are 3 phase so you will have to buy/make a converter if you don't have 3 phase available to your shop already.

[HWooldridge]

As a footnote to Ed's comments, small shapers are quite handy and often very cheap at auctions and estate sales because people either don't know what they are or don't want them for industrial use. However, a great deal of work can be done on a relatively small machine with minimal tooling.

[Matthew Groves]

Don't forget, there's always a sure fire way of never getting sniped on ebay...

Always bid the HIGHEST that you're willing to spend on an item.

Here's how to know if your bid is right:

You know it's not too low when someone else could win the item for ONE more dollar and you're not upset, cause you didn't want it for THAT much.

As well, you know it's not too high if YOU would win at your highest bid amount and you don't feel like you overpaid.

Sniping doesn't mean anything except someone else wanted to pay more. If we would have set our bids higher in the first place, ebay would have bid for us.

I WOULD recommend bidding fairly late in the game, though. There's no sense giving your competitor days and days to figure out if he really does want to enter a higher bid.

Just my experience, of course.

[FredlyFX]

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I'm actually one of those evil snipers. I figured out long ago on ebay that if I bid when I first see an item then things just go higher and higher as we go back and forth for days. On both of these items I was pretty excited that there were no bids really untill the last day. They each had stayed at the same price until the final day. I started putting my bids in with about 1 1/2 minutes to go and it jumpped from 200 to 660 in that time with about 6 or 7 bids recorded. Everyone else was doing the same thing I was.

I think what I am actually going to do now is stay away from buying any large equipment, and focus on building my permanent shop. I have been planning it for 2 years, but it is really time to get going on it. Then, when I eventually get some nice equipment I will actually have a place for it.

[Bandicoot]

Fred, I think building your permanent shop before buying large equipment is a good idea. I moved interstate some 12 years ago, and went from having a great workshop to a rented property with no workshop. It was only 3 years ago we purchased land and built a shed and house. Some of the equipment was in storage and some semi undercover and tarped when not in use. Not a fun way to work and often a discouragement to getting started on projects because the set up was difficult to work with. The new shed was built as large as I could afford, with 3phase run in from the start. I've had it completed and workable for over a year now, and still get a kick out of being able to go down there and work with everything to hand and properly set up. Somehow though I still seem to be running out of room! Good luck with your shop.

[Ed Thomas]

Fred: Bandicoot is no doubt very right, and his answer is very sensible. I try to avoid people like that.

The way I did it was to build my shop in one end of a small pole barn I'd built for tractor equipment when I first moved here. Then I started buying big tools, like the Gorton and a flypress and lathe and some power hammers. Well, not only was it frustrating to not be able to set these up properly, I started panicking at not being about to provide decent protection from the elements. I think it was my collection of tools that made me get off my butt and build a decent shop. If it wasn't for my irresponsible buying of bargain tools, I wouldn't have had any motivation at all. So my advice to you is to stop being so reasonable and go forth and acquire!!! It will make you panic. It will raise your blood pressure. It will make your wife roll her eyes. In short, it will make you feel ALIVE!!!

[rthibeau]

A friend of mine told me decades ago, "build it twice as big and twice as far back into the woods", referring to my first "shop" building that I had planned. His advice was right then and still is now. No matter how well you think you've got it figured out - "build it twice as big and twice as far back into the woods".

[FredlyFX]

Thanks for the advice rthibeau

I really can't build into the woods, since I live in town, but I am building it big. If the city lets me do it the way I am planning, then it will pretty much cover all the available space on my lot. I will end up with a 40 by 60 roof that has a 12 by 24 shed centered on one of the long sides. The shed is already there, and the new building will be built next to it so the shed door opens into the building. I won't be able to use all the space now, but I know I will grow into it. I plan to have the plans done and a permit pulled by the end of July. Hopefully by Christmas I will be moving in.