Frosty

Gee Thomas you don't NEED electricity to make machinery go after you. I know I was more than able to hurt myself just with a tricycle.

I used to wear my hair fairly long Steve. Then buzzed my head when a friend went in for chemo. She's lived a couple years longer than anyone thought but I'm still buzzing my head, it's WAY cooler in the summer and you wouldn't believe what I save in shampoo!

Johnny: Good idea about the mesh vest. You can get them with lots of handy pockets too, including a surveyor's vest with a large through pocket in the back for carrying maps and stakes. It'd be near perfect for an insulin pump or similar device. The only downside to a surveyor's vest is the color international orange or high visibility green, with retroreflective strips.

Actually I carry two safety vests in the Saturn just in case I have to change a tire, stop for an accident or walk for help. You simply can NOT be too visible on the road. I know, I spent 30 years dodging motorists working for AK DOT.

Dan: It's all really a matter of taste and desire isn't it? The real tradition of the blacksmith was to do the job better, faster, easier and more profitably. It's one of the very few professions to sucessfully develop itself out of existence. Oh sure there are still quite a few blacksmiths around but most of us are doing it for the fun, very few are needed industrially. Even farriers are dependant on a luxury market in our portion of the world.

Seriously, Miller and Lincoln were multi-generational smiths looking for a better method of welding. Hobart invented the acetylene torch because hauling a forge to a site, uninstalling a bent or broken piece of hardware (usually a bent gate) getting it into a forge to heat was just too much work.

How about visegrips? The drill press, lathe, rolling mill, press, etc. etc.

I'm not taking issue with your preferences, heck, I blacksmith and try not to be a hypocritic. Today's blacksmith can operate in any period s/he wishes and best of all doesn't have to worry about it being the "RIGHT" period. I prefer "period" to "tradition" but that's just my preference, I can do most of them.

Besides after enough years electric lights just mean you can work past high noon.

Frosty

Good ideas JR. Particularly the closet extension.

The bag carrier doesn't need the upper loop though. Just the deep "C" shape will do as well and not take up as much room nor weigh as much.

Flattening the handle portion a bit will make it more comfortable to carry as well.

Some years ago I saw a little old lady carrying several plastic bags balanced on a cut off piece of broom handle. She was holding it balanced in the center while she unlocked her car.

I thought it was a good idea at the time but didn't consider trying to patent and manufacture cut off broom handles as particularly viable.

Frosty

Ouch!

This falls into the "loose clothing and hair in the shop" catagory. Getting tangled in machinery is no fun, especially if it's moving machinery.

Shirt sleeves/tails, suspenders, long hair, jewelry, anything attached to you and hanging loose can catch on something and injure you. Getting caught up in rotating machinery is frequently fatal. Just catching a glove in a wire wheel can cripple you and is guaranteed to REALLY hurt if you're lucky.

Frosty

Hi all. I am putting together a one-brick forge so I can make a couple of one off woodworking blades that I need.

My understanding is that the regular bernzomatic plumber's style propane torches will not work.

Would the mapp gas torch like the below one work? On 3/8" O1?

Trigger Start Torch Kit

(I have a regular coal forge too. This is just to prove a point to someone.)

I guess it depends on how hot you want it. A bernzomatic should get you into the low yellow anyway if you use light brick, maybe a bit more if you use a kiln brick.

More heat easier with mapp though of course.

Frosty

Hey Frosty, I really enjoyed that account of your time on the Last Frontier. Very inspiring.



A blacksmith can find a silver lining anywhere :cool:

Don

Yeah, every dark cloud has a coal fire under it.

Frosty

Thanks, Frosty! Good to hear from someone who has done this.

Several points I'll have to consider there. I may have some questions... like would more chimney on this setup help? Or do I need more firebox too? As it is, if I put too many chips in the chimney I have to pump the bellows pretty hard to avoid thick smoke (gotta have the flame above to burn it off, and it has to stay pretty hot to keep that going). When pumping the bellows that hard, and the pieces of charcoal in the firebox get pretty burnt out it starts coming out the front in chunks as they get lighter. Lump charcoal does the same thing (plus it starts popping; probably moisture in it), so I've never gotten much heat from it either. I don't mind ash and little embers flying around but don't let the chunks land on you.

I have considered (in a larger setup) actually putting a retort in the chimney. I guessing that would be a little more efficient, but would it make enough?

Thanks and Good Luck!

Yeah, you pretty much have to keep the blast going and it needs to be larger than you're using.

About the smallest I've used was a hill furnace and it wasn't large enough to work very well. It was a trench about 8"w x 10"d x 4'l going up a fairly steep bank, maybe 65-70*. It drew okay but not really good enough. I should've dug it wider and deeper but we were only there a few days. The drill broke and we had to take it back.

You load the wood into the top of the trench and it settles as it burns forming a large bed of coals at the bottom. The trench acts like a side draft stack and draws air across the charcoal. If you have something to cover the trench and you make it large enough, say a couple feet wide and deep and six to ten long it'll melt iron for you.

These aren't efficient ways to heat iron. They work though and work well.

Frosty

I use wood chips in my forge, converting them to charcoal in the "chimney" now (my latest configuration). I have another brick on edge in the front now, so I can fill it up with wood chips. I'm using seasoned bull (Virginia) pine, 2-4" long, and various shapes and sizes of chunks. I'm not getting above orange heat, but at this point it doesn't bother me. As I get more experience I can probably solve that.

Good Luck!

What you're doing works quite well but your scale is too small. I don't know what the bottom end threshold is but your set up is below it.

I've used the same technique many times with varying degrees of success. I was an exploration driller for the State of AK for 19 years. We drilled test holes for bridges, foundations, boat harbours, etc. etc. and spent a majority of our time in the bush.

Not being the kind of guy who enjoys knocking off a half rack of beer nightly I did a lot of reading and when weather permitted sitting around a camp fire poking it with sticks. We all spent a lot of time poking the camp fire with sticks.

I started heating and beating found or damaged steel (drilling damages a LOT of steel. ) After a while I started packing a RR track anvil I'd made up a couple pairs of tongs and some other minor tools.

Frequently I'd just use the coals in the campfire which is enough general forging. On other occasions we'd be on location long enough or there was something good enough I'd set up something a little more sophisticated.

The best field expedient forge I put together was the Resurrection River Forge. The Resurrection River runs from Exit Glacier to Resurrection Bay, just outside of Seward. The Google Earth satellite image isn't too good but it's okay.

Anyway, our project was finding and proving up quarry sites for the FHWA while we were drilling bridges on the Exit Glacier Rd. We'd set up camp on the sand bar between the river and the road and were planning on being there a couple months at least. That's most of an Alaskan summer.

The 64 quake petty well totalled Seward and there is a LOT of debris still to be found. The Resurrection River above the highway bridge for about 1/4 mile +/- is loaded with steel of all shapes and sizes.

While schlepping around after work one day I found a big axle laying in the river. When I say big I'm talking about 3 1/2"+ dia more than 4' long with a flange a good 12" around and 1 1/2" thick with 10 ea. 7/8" holes around the rim. The center of the flange over the axle shaft was only slightly domed with a flat spot in the center about 4" in dia. The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw it laying there near the river bank was. . . ANVIL! I figure it weighed around 170lbs. +/-.

I dragged the thing back to camp and started deciding where to put the smithy. It needed to be close enough I could pack the stuff I didn't want stolen to camp but far enough away it wouldn't interfere with peaceful camp life. THE place was out on the bar, just a little ways from the river where the wind always blows.

The near constant wind was one of the things that decided me on building a fairly large set up. That and the availability of salvage in the river of course. I spent quite a bit of time dragging pipe and rebar our of the river and hauling it back to the site.

The hack saw made useable lengths of it and I drove a bunch into the sand in a circle about 3' in dia and 3' high. These became the "frame" for the forge and I filled it with rocks and sand to make the forge body. As I was filling it I placed a 5' length of damaged casing in the forge. The top end stopped just below the top of the forge and the other ended a foot off the ground facing into the prevailing wind.

I filled in around the upper end of the casing with rocks I dug out of the roadside. NEVER put rocks out of a stream, lake, etc. in a fire, steam can make them explode! Above these I used a bunch of short cutoffs of rebar to make a fire grate. Then I plastered over the rocks and ends of the rebar with damp clay from up by the road.

I used pieces of sheet metal from the river (everything I didn't bring with me came out of the river ) to make a wind trap to funnel air into the pipe. This was my air blast; it was very consistent and easily controlled by blocking the wind trap as necessary.

The last touch was to drive a bunch of steel stakes around the top of the forge. This was my idea for containing the wood I was going to burn down into charcoal for forging. And NO it didn't work so well but I'll get to that in a minute.

The next thing I did was dig and drive the axle into the sand so the flange was at comfortable forging height. At that time I was mounting my anvils at knuckle height. I mount them a bit higher now but not quite wrist height.

Then I spent some time with the chainsaw and axe cutting and splitting birch and alder into small pieces for the fire. The first couple times I lit it up I was heating and bending rebar and the like for helpers, tong racks and such. It was during this phase I realized the cage of rebar wasn't going to work for containing the fire. It was like standing on the receiving end of a blowtorch! I mean seriously, try standing next to a fire that's about 2 1/2' tall, at waist height and driven by a steady 12-16mph wind. It'll make your hair smoke and NOT in the good way.

What I did then was hike back down to the river and fish a 15gl. barrel out of the bushes. I brought it back and chiseled the bottom out of it and a door about 8" sq. in the side near the top. I chiseled a smaller pass through on the far side as well and used the cutout to close it up.

I stood the 15 gl. barrel on top of the forge with the doors on the bottom and kept it filled it with split wood to burn down into charcoal. If I'd made the rock and sand forge a little wider I would've dragged a 55gl. drum out to make a heat shield as it was still like standing WAY too close to a barrel stove. It was bearable though so I used it as it was.

This set up worked like a charm, though it could've used a little tweeking it still cranked hot Hot HOT. It had no trouble making welding heat and hotter.

The axle made one of the best anvils I've ever used, it had tremendous depth of rebound and the bolt holes around the flange were excellent for bending. The horn was a bit awkward being vertical and directly under the flange like it was though.

Once I had the basic set up going, several days of packing, digging, bending, etc. I started working on tools and making fun stuff. Probably the worst part (even worse than the amount of wood it burned!) was working on sand. The sand was always shifting under me and I was always having to shovel it back and level it out. Throwing water on it regularly helped but sand is NOT something I recommend for a shop floor.

Anyway, burning wood in the "chimney" to make your charcoal works fine. It's really wasteful compared to a proper charcoal retort but it works just fine.

Frosty

Well done Don.

They're all very uniform without losing their hand madeness. Anyone can make one of something but it's a sign of good skill to make so many so consistently.

The customer will be very pleased.

Frosty

They're cast iron and good for what they are. Weights.

Frosty

Raised,
sunk,
Repousse and chased,
fold formed
cast.

Being techniques these can all be fit into other catagories as well as scales such as:
Jewelry,
vessels,
sculpture,
hardware,
architectural,
structural,
etc., etc.

Frosty

Thanks Glenn. I was starting to think I'd crossed the line.

I didn't know Jim and only talked to him electronically a couple times. The things I was most impressed with are:

How universally he was liked.

How quick he was to take credit for his mistakes.

Frosty

Water is also necessary for human life but still kills thousands of people a year.

Ask any old weldor about the zinc shakes---especially good if you are collecting examples of colourful profanity.

The problem with nickle is that you can become sensitized to it and so have reactions out of line with exposure.

Probably the worst one we haven't mentioned is Beryllium which can upon low exposure to dust containing it cause irreversable lung damage and death. After I read up on it I purged my random brass/bronze box of items that might have been made from it. Luckily it's not used as a plating material AFAIK.

As for PawPaw Wilson: he did something he *knew* was stupid. He paid for it with his life. I'm not going to mock a fellow who was a good friend to many; I've done too many stupid things in my life that I have barely escaped the consequences of to point fingers.

At least I'm old enough that reproductive toxins are not a concern anymore---youngest kid starts college in a couple of weeks.

I am one of those old weldors; I'm all too familiar with the "blue flu". I've breathed enough zinc smoke to be dead if it were a cumulative toxin. It isn't though and even the most conservative safe levels are surprisingly high. Heck, The safe level has been raised at least once since the first time I looked it up in the early 70's.

About the only place you're likely to run across beryllium is in large electrical busses. It was added for strength but has been replaced as of late. The alloy does look something like brass though. Beryllium is stable at room temp so I still have to give Cadmium #1. Beryllium isn't all that common and I've never heard of it as plating.

I'm not mocking anyone but I am still mad as hell that he did something so knowingly careless. I guess I shouldn't be mad at Paw Paw but what a totally avoidable waste. Maybe it's because I've gotten away with so many things reasonably unscathed that it POs me so much. Even in my most foolish youth I never did something tantamount to suicidal though. I mean seriously, it's like hooking a mask up to the exhaust pipe on your car.

I use Jim as an example of just how HARD it is to kill yourself with zinc smoke. Had he gone to the doctor any time in the first week after exposing himself he'd probably still be with us. Heck, if he hadn't had heart and breathing problems he might've made it anyway.

And lastly; remember Jim Wilson was rather famous for posting the pictures and stories of his accidents. He frequently made a point of relating his own experiences as cautionary tales of what NOT to do.

When confronted with such a cavalier attitude to a known danger, I'd be dishonoring Paw Paw's memory NOT to use his example of what not to do.

Do you think he'd do any different had he survived?

Frosty

How about chucking it up in a lathe and taking a carbide cutter to it? If you don't have a lathe a diamond or carbide file will remove it in large enough particles you won't be exposing yourself to chrome oxide. For a few bucks you could take it to a chrome shop and have it removed. I guess that would be cheating though. Eh?

While zinc isn't nearly as dangerous as it's rep, it's still nothing to play with if you don't know what you're doing. Zinc oxide is not only easily chelated it's a necessary nutrient. OD can be dangerous or fatal but it takes a heavy dose and further neglectful behavior.

Oh, say locking yourself in a shop and burning the galvy off a couple hundred copies of 2" x 3" pipe. Then NOT seeking medical attention for a week or so. ESPECIALLY considering he knew what he was doing! :mad:

Now THAT was worthy of an honorable mention in the Darwin Awards.

Heavy metal poisoning is cumulative and doesn't leave your system. The most dangerous heavy metal you're likely to come in common contact with is cadmium. Bare cad will sublime at well below room temperature and is highly toxic.

Nickle isn't as bad but you should avoid breathing the dust or smoke as much as possible.

On the conservative side a "no plated metals at all" policy is a good one, pretty close to what I follow.

On the cavalier side: "it's only a little once in a while" is okay so long as you aren't endangering anyone but yourself. Do it outdoors and downwind of family, neighbors, and such. Heck you can give retorting gold out of amalgum a try if you want. Just don't take anyone else with you. EH?

Frosty

Sam, I have no clue what you are speaking of.

Chrome poisoning is cumulative, as are all heavy metals, a little now and then will do you in just fine. Doing something fatal for less than intelligent reasons qualifies you for a Darwin Award.

I agree though, disregarding something this basic barely qualifies you for an honorable mention.

Use a non-dangerous method for removing the plating and NO, grinding isn't one of them.

Frosty

Nice score Aaron!

I never see cool stuff like that around here.

Frosty

Bear,
The guillotine tool looks like a crimper to put terminals on large electrical cables. Let us know how it works as a guillotine tool.

John

Frosty replied as I was typing

Yeah, I'm sneaky that way John.

We carried a cable cutter just like it on the drill rig for field repairs, so I'm pretty sure of what it is. That doesn't mean I'm right, there could be details of the contact surfaces that'd change my mind.

Frosty

Mike:

Talk to Bob Bergman, he makes a living repairing old power hammers.

Postville Blacksmith Shop

Attached is (should be?) a pic of Bob watching as I play on his 200lb Bradley shop hammer. Deb didn't get a pic of me playing with his Nazel 3B though.

Anyway, he can answer your questions and is a fine guy.

Frosty

here are two things that sortof followed me home in the past few weeks.Picked up the guillotine tool off of ebay and the stake was from an auction locally. Just taking abreak right now( working on clearing out where my "new" forge is going to go).

Nice scores.

The guillotine tool is a cable cutter.

Frosty

No backyard metalcasting is pretty tame with propane or NG---its when he tries thermite as his molten metal source *then* his neighbors will be *very* *very* nervous!

Truth is, nothing but thermite will do when you actually want to smelt the backyard.

Frosty

I have a neighbor who deserves it right on our property line.

Frosty

Well since you don't know what you will be doing you will be building a 100' by 100' building with a 40' ceiling with a rolling crane right? Just in case?

Generally you build for what you expect to be doing and modify as that changes.

If you expect to be doing knife/sword work; best to set up for that. If you expect you will be doing large ornamental work best to set up for that.

So what do you see yourself doing in the near term?

Thomas

You know Thomas we think so much alike sometimes it's almost scary. That or we've run into some of the same problems and solutions? . . .NAW.

It's not so hard to build for future expansion and modification. It's almost a must unless you're on your second or third shop and have an established clientele and or specialty.

Myself I'm a generalist in metal so my (under construction still!) shop reflects that. It's a 30' x 40' x 14' red iron steel building on a 24" sq footing and 6" slab.

I didn't know where I wanted to put my power hammer when I got or built one so I planned the shop for it. The general area I want the power hammer has an 8" floor with doubled ebar. It's positioned pretty central to the shop on the west wall. It's going in that general location because that's where the jib crane is going.

The swing and capacity of the jib crane will allow me to lift and move 500 lbs. from the forge to the hammer easily. It'll have a chain sling on a hoist as seen in old timey movies of smiths working heavy stock under power hammers.

I don't know if I'll set it up so I can service a full 21' from either direction but may. Texturing and otherwise working long stock full length is a possibility I'm not going to ignore.

If I build my own hammer which is the most likely probability I'll design the dies for quick change and make them easy to rotate 90*. In this case positioning the hammer will be easy. If on the other hand I find a hammer locally for affordable I MAY have to figure a way to get 21' either way. This will take up a lot more room though.

So Imagedude, we're sort of in the same boat. Neither of us know exactly what we're going to be doing in our shops. Where we differ is, I've been at it for enough decades to know how to set myself up with a reasonably adaptable shop and keep my options open without crippling (figuratively speaking) myself in the process.

One of the best lessons my Father taught me is: You better have a "darned" (Dad didn't say "darned") good reason to turn down a profitable job. He was also well known for thinking things through thoroughly whenever possible.

Researching and asking questions is good.

Frosty

Frosty

Actually I was hoping for something I could sell the marks. . . Uh. . . Eh. . . Er. . . Ahem "spectators" at demos rather than something practical I could make and use myself. Besides I have more than enough scale laying around if I want to use it for hot punch anti-seize.

Like your signoff. But isn't the malleable end the HOT end?

How about:

"Carpe Frigidum" :cool:

Frosty

Oh I like that idea! Get the customer to haul off your waste and pay you for the priviledge.

I wonder what I should call scale and how much to charge.

Frosty

Another thing to consider about heat is relative power. Place your anvil and post vise closer to the forge than the power hammer. Your power hammer doesn't need the steel to be as hot as hand work does so you can take the extra step without it being a problem.

I'd put it centered on a wall aligned with the door so you can work long stock.

Frosty

Frosty, what was that they say about a small world?

This is the first time the faire has been held since 2004, the group that originally ran it could no longer pay the liability insurance, I think it was. Now a new group has taken up the torch, hopefully it will once again be a yearl thing, it had been getting bigger every year. This is their website: index.htm

My wife and I aren't Scadian but we like ren faires, especially if there's fire and hammers involved. The ren faire in Anchorage is pretty pathetic but it was to be expected once the municipal "arts council" got involved.:mad: It went from an event that was crowded on 50-60 acres to one that is thin on 10. The local SCA, Elizebethan club, Scottish Society, etc. etc. don't participate. There is usually a pipe and drum corps there but they have to be paid.

It's a sad thing and we miss a good ren faire.

Frosty